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https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl Simulators >> Circuit Simulators >> Few questions https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242815482 Message started by kidman on May 20th, 2009, 3:31am |
Title: Few questions Post by kidman on May 20th, 2009, 3:31am 1- I noticed something odd happening. When i use AC analysis and plot the gain the gain given was 70 but when I used DC analysis and plot dvout/dvin the curve shown showed that the max gain you could get out of the circuit is 40. I want to know what is the reason for that. 2- When making AC analysis I usually make the AC magnitude be 1 volt. Does that value actually matter? NB i'm using Vdd=1.2 3- Is there a way to let the simulator calculate or plot the Dynamic Range of the circuit? Thanks! |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by Geoffrey_Coram on May 20th, 2009, 4:19am 1. Are you sure you took enough points to compute an accurate numerical derivative? 2. The value doesn't matter; the circuit is linearized for ac analysis -- using 1 means you don't have to divide out the value at the end. (For differential circuits, I suppose you might use half a volt on each input.) |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by kidman on May 20th, 2009, 4:29am 1- I just used the calculator. When i plot Vout vs Vin I open the calculator, click on the button "wave" then click of the vout curve. Then there's a function in the calculator called "deriv" that computes the derivative of Vout w.r.t vin. The result is dvout/dvin vs vin |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by buddypoor on May 20th, 2009, 5:36am kidman wrote on May 20th, 2009, 3:31am:
Of course, there are many circuits which exhibit a DC gain which differs from the ac gain. During computation of the dc gain (dVout/dVin) all capacitive effects are neglected (perhaps ac feedback ?) Check your circuit . |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by kidman on May 20th, 2009, 6:11am The circuit is a simple basic common source amplifier |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by subgold on May 20th, 2009, 6:15am kidman wrote on May 20th, 2009, 4:29am:
it has nothing to do with the calculator. you need to set the step size of your dc simulation small enough to obtain sufficient resolution. |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by buddypoor on May 20th, 2009, 6:33am kidman wrote on May 20th, 2009, 6:11am:
Well, another source of error could be that the axis in the dc plot are not spaced linearly. When there are no caps in the circuit the dc gain must be identical to the ac gain. Try to measure the slope of the dc response curve by hand rather than let it compute by taking the derivative. |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by Geoffrey_Coram on May 20th, 2009, 8:53am The "dc gain" is vout/vin, and that certainly can be different from the ac gain, which is the derivative of vout with respect to vin. In order to compute dvout/dvin, you would numerically compute v(out2) - v(out1) / ( vin1 - vin2 ) where in1 = in2 + epsilon, and v(out1) is the output voltage when the input is vin1. The trick is to pick epsilon small enough that you really get the tangent to the curve, yet large enough that you're not dominated by numerical noise. |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by buddypoor on May 20th, 2009, 12:48pm Geoffrey_Coram wrote on May 20th, 2009, 8:53am:
Yes, you are right. It was my fault to call the derivative "dc gain". Nevertheless, it is not uncommon that the slope of the dc transfer curve differs from the ac gain. That was my point. Thanks. |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by kidman on May 20th, 2009, 1:04pm Which one should I beleive? |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by buddypoor on May 21st, 2009, 1:46am kidman wrote on May 20th, 2009, 1:04pm:
Nothing ! You should not believe one of us but try to become convinced. Therefore, my recommendation again: - Perform a dc-analysis and evaluate the slope of the curve around the correct bias point. All axis, of course, scaled linearly. - Then, perform an ac analysis. Check if the same bias point is used from the program ! - If there is no considerable capacitice effect in the circuit, in both cases the gain must be identical. |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by Geoffrey_Coram on May 21st, 2009, 6:07am buddypoor wrote on May 21st, 2009, 1:46am:
Oy! there's a good point I hadn't been thinking about. |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by raja.cedt on May 21st, 2009, 8:51am hi buddypoor, thanks for very interesting discussion, my doubt is in both cases gain has to be same if he use enough resolution in dc sweep.why capacitive feedback will effect this because even ac simulation also while consider at low frequency how they will impcat? I have another question,i found opamp output impedance by injecting ac current source and finding voltage bump but this is not equal to my small signal output impedance? Now which one is correct? |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by buddypoor on May 21st, 2009, 11:26am raja.cedt wrote on May 21st, 2009, 8:51am:
Sorry, but I didnīt get the meaning of the first part referenced above. As for the 2nd part, how did you arrive at the value for "my small signal output impedance" ? By calculation or by what procedures ? The method using an ac current source is 100% correct. Do you have in both cases the same operating point ? |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by raja.cedt on May 21st, 2009, 12:19pm hi buddy poor, in the first what i mean to say for finding dc gain both methods has to give same answer, how capacitive coupling will effect? or could you please explain how to find dc gain? for second question i derived expression for output impedance and substituted all small signal parameters (gm,gds) from .op result and i have same operation point in both cases? Thanks, Rajasekhar. |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by buddypoor on May 22nd, 2009, 1:16am raja.cedt wrote on May 21st, 2009, 12:19pm:
During dc analysis all capacitors are neglected (set to zero Farad). Therefore, if caps are there, results of dc and ac analyses are different. Regarding the output impedance, I would trust the simulation results. Probably your calculations using formulas are not correct. Which formula did you use ? Is the circuit a simple common source amp without any feedback? |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by raja.cedt on May 22nd, 2009, 2:49am hi buddypoor, it is a single stage differential op amp with unity gain feedback.I used r=(rp//rn)/(1+A) where a=gmn*(rp//rn). thanks, rajsekhar. |
Title: Re: Few questions Post by buddypoor on May 22nd, 2009, 5:15am raja.cedt wrote on May 22nd, 2009, 2:49am:
On May 20th you spoke about a common source amplifier; now it is an opamp ? Can you, please provide a circuit diagram ? I cannot follow you, because an opamp with unity gain feedback does not need any resistors. What is rp and rn and gmn ??? |
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