The Designer's Guide Community Forum https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl Modeling >> Passive Devices >> Modeling ESR variation of Capacitor https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1176827408 Message started by Faisal on Apr 17th, 2007, 9:30am

 Title: Modeling ESR variation of Capacitor Post by Faisal on Apr 17th, 2007, 9:30am Hi,The ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) is specified the capacitor data-sheets. It varies over the frequency range.  How can I model this behavior within Spectre ??At this moment, I use a low frequency value of ESR in my simulation, but as the LDO stability depends upon ESR, I think its a good idea to consider ESR variation with frequency.

 Title: Re: Modeling ESR variation of Capacitor Post by Ken Kundert on Apr 17th, 2007, 11:22am You might want to take a look at the capacitor modeling papers in the "Modeling" section of this website. In particular the one on modeling dielectric absorption and the fracpole suite.-Ken

 Title: Re: Modeling ESR variation of Capacitor Post by Faisal on Apr 18th, 2007, 5:15am Thank you for this link. I have now couple of related questions.1) I am in the process of choosing the capacitor while looking at their datasheets. Is their a quick way to dervie a crude di-electric absorpiton model from the data-sheet ?2) The ESR, impedance is specified starting from 10 or 100 Hz, but not some lower number like 0.1 or 1 Hz.  From certain data-sheets it seems that the value of ESR will increase as we approach dc. What is the reason behind this behavior?

 Title: Re: Modeling ESR variation of Capacitor Post by Ken Kundert on Apr 18th, 2007, 3:34pm The way I do it is to plot the resistance and reactance of the capacitor on a log-log chart. Then I use straight-line asymptotes to represent the idealized components in the model. The reactance due to a capacitor will have a slope of -1, for an inductance the slope will be +1. Resistors will have a slope of 0. A capacitive fracpole will have a slope of -1/2. I then move these lines up or down, left or right, in order to fit the data from the capacitor. Once you get the best fit, you convert their reactance to their component values.The dielectric absorption is responsible for the series resistance changing with frequency. This effect is described in the paper.-Ken

 Title: Re: Modeling ESR variation of Capacitor Post by Faisal on Apr 25th, 2007, 8:09am On pg 11 of the document, "Modeling Absorptive Capacitors", the parametes τ and C∞ are derived, while "only looking at Fig 2". Can some one explain how the author calculates  τ = 1 sec and C∞ = 12.5nF from Fig 2.

 Title: Re: Modeling ESR variation of Capacitor Post by Ken Kundert on Apr 25th, 2007, 12:37pm The 12.5nF can be extracted from the low frequency reactance (X). The reactance of a C∞ = 12.5nF capacitor is 1/2πfC = 1.27kΩ at 10kHz.The value of τ is more of a judgment call. The resistive part of dielectric absorption is a slowly curved line, as shown in the bottom part of Fig. 4. You can determine α from the distance between the real and imaginary parts of the curve at the inflection point (1/τ). But as α approaches 1 the curve becomes so gently sloped that it is difficult to determine where the inflection point is. I somewhat arbitrarily chose it to be 1 because I felt the inflection point was well below the lowest value shown. But frankly, the value of τ is not critical.-Ken

 Title: Re: Modeling ESR variation of Capacitor Post by martinm_de on Jun 18th, 2014, 8:54am Hi Ken,thanks  for  answering all these questions instead of leavingus  in desparation!Here is my question, also related  to fracpoles and ESR modelling:in your paper   on page 8http://www.designers-guide.org/Modeling/suite.pdf ,the software  asks  for an ESR. When looking at the generated subcircuit, the ESR is added to the inductor model.So, we have  a constant  ESR. My understanding was  that  ESR   is  ~1/f ,  and is modelled by the fracpole.  So, why  is  ESR  appearing as a constant  resistor?Thanks.

 Title: Re: Modeling ESR variation of Capacitor Post by Ken Kundert on Jun 19th, 2014, 8:47am There are multiple components to the ESR. One part is the dielectric absorption. It goes to 0 as f goes to 0. Another part is contact and lead resistance, which presumable is constant over frequency. When the program refers to ESR it is only referring to the contact and lead resistance.This is kind of a "if you can't fix it, feature it" situation. Dielectric absorption is expensive to model, and I cannot maintain the model over all frequencies, so I use the fact that the dielectric absorption model breaks down at lower frequencies to model the contact and lead resistance.-Ken

 Title: Re: Modeling ESR variation of Capacitor Post by martinm_de on Jun 20th, 2014, 12:05am Hi Ken,thanks a lot,  it is clear now.You are the man.RegardsMartin