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Noise figure Temperature (Read 20888 times)
aaron_do
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Re: Noise figure Temperature
Reply #15 - Oct 21st, 2007, 6:58pm
 
Hi didac,


So to sum up, NF measures the degradation in SNR due to the receiver and is a standard for comparing between other designs. But if you're trying to find the degradation in SNR, NF can only be used accurately at a port T of 290K right?


thanks,
Aaron
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: Noise figure Temperature
Reply #16 - Oct 22nd, 2007, 1:06am
 
Hi, Aaron.

You can't apply straight Fris equation to cascaded systems when DUT's temperature isn't 290[K].
Straight Fris equation is valid when temperature of source and DUT are all 290[K].
Of course you can modify equation to deal with temperature difference.

See http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1190112138

Run the following netlist using Cadence Spectre.

(1) Tambient=-250[degC], T0=16.85[degC]
(2) Tambient=-250[degC], T0=-250[degC]

(1) gives NF=4.00182[dB]
(2) gives NF=13.0000[dB]

Do you think which results express DUT's thermal noise effect reasonably ?

=============================================================
simulator lang=spectre
global 0

aho options temp=-250 // Analysis Temperature in [degC], (Tambient)
parameters T0_degC=temp // Reference Temperature in [degC]

parameters att=13 // Attenuation in [dB]
parameters k=10**(att/20)
parameters z0=50 // Reference Impedance [ohm]
parameters Rp=z0*(k+1)/(k-1)
parameters Rs=0.5*z0*(k*k-1)/k

R1 (in 0)  resistor r=Rp
R2 (out 0) resistor r=Rp
R3 (in out) resistor r=Rs

port1 (in 0)  port r=z0 num=1 type=dc
//+ noisetemp=T0_degC

port2 (out 0) port r=z0 num=2 type=dc
//+ noisetemp=T0_degC

boke options reltol=1e-3 vabstol=1e-6 iabstol=1e-12 \
   tnom=27 scalem=1.0 scale=1u gmin=1.0e-15 rforce=1 maxnotes=5 \
   maxwarns=5 digits=5 cols=80 pivrel=1e-3 ckptclock=1800 \
   sensfile="../psf/sens.output" rawfmt=psfascii

sp sp values=[100M] donoise=yes oprobe=port2 iprobe=port1
+   annotate=status
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« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2007, 8:47am by pancho_hideboo »  
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didac
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Re: Noise figure Temperature
Reply #17 - Oct 22nd, 2007, 1:31am
 
Hi,
Aaron I think that you are confusing ambient temperature with equivalent noise temperature, To it's a reference temperature for measurement(290  was proposed because it was a round number in a time of slide calculators). The NF can measure the degradation of SNR at any temperature, the effect of ambient temperature reflects on the equivalent noise temperature of the DUT(Te).
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aaron_do
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Re: Noise figure Temperature
Reply #18 - Oct 22nd, 2007, 1:51am
 
Hi pancho_hideboo,


Sorry i'm not familiar with how to simulate from the netlist like that, but i know what you've done and i agree with your result. I was only trying to say that the NF should depend on the targeted application. For example, using NF = 1+Te/T0, we know that the output SNR of the receiver is,

Psig/(kT0B(1+Te/T0) = Psig/(k(Te+T0)B

so the final SNR depends on T0.

On the other hand i also agree with the use of a standard temperature (290K) since this makes it easy to calculate the noise added by the DUT without having to know the channel conditions. I think this is your point right?


cheers,
Aaron
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aaron_do
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Re: Noise figure Temperature
Reply #19 - Oct 22nd, 2007, 1:57am
 
Hi didac,


just read your post...now i am confused. Is the equation i just inserted wrong? How does NF measure degradation of SNR when T0 is not 290K? As pointed out by Ken, T0 is the temperature of the channel...


thanks,
Aaron
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: Noise figure Temperature
Reply #20 - Oct 22nd, 2007, 2:10am
 
Hi, Aaron.

Assume this netlist name is "pi_att.scs".
You can run this netlist like following.

% spectre -E +log pi_att.log pi_att.scs

You can see simulation results in "pi_att.raw" directory.
    logFile  sp.noise.sp  sp.sp
These are ascii file.

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didac
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Re: Noise figure Temperature
Reply #21 - Oct 22nd, 2007, 2:23am
 
Hi,
Noise due to the channel is putted in the antenna temperature(like you said in a previous post satellite links pointing to the sky see low antenna temperature), channel noise doesn't have any effect on the NF of the DUT, ambient temperature translates in an increment of Te if you warm a resistor or a decrease of Te if you cool it with ice(to say something), To it's just a reference temperature.
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aaron_do
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Re: Noise figure Temperature
Reply #22 - Oct 22nd, 2007, 2:46am
 
Yeah it seems you're right...its just a reference temperature. Thanks for the info about running the netlist too,


Aaron
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