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stability analysis from ADE (Read 4889 times)
Dipankar
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stability analysis from ADE
Sep 09th, 2008, 8:39am
 
Dear All,

I was trying stb analysis from ADE to characterize open loop dc gain ( in this case loop gain in unity feedback) , phase margin, ugbw of a 2 stage opamp .

The  loopgain maxima as measured from stb analysis is matching exactly with  dcgain measured from  traditional openloop simulation  tb. But pm reported by stb is less than what I get from my traditional testbench. Looks like the 2nd pole in case of stb analysis frequency response is occurring a bit earlier than that of  traditional TB freq. response.

My traditional TB : opamp in non-inverting mode with rc feedback (lowpass filter with fc~1e-9 Hz) .

stb analysis TB: opamp in non-inverting mode with unity feedback (a dummy vdc in the loop)


Can anybody help me understand the case ? Which result I can rely upon ?

with regs.,
Dipankar.
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With Thanks and Regards,
Dipankar.
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Tlaloc
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #1 - Sep 9th, 2008, 9:47am
 
I personally would believe STB analysis.  The problem with the older methods of finding the transfer function involved a number of assumptions that discounted non-idealities.  With a giant RC in the feedback (or LC) you have created a pole-zero pair at very low frequencies.  This also isolates the real loading created by your input capacitance.  It also isolates the feed-forward transmission (going the wrong way) through your feedback path.  It does, though, approximate the real transfer function by providing something close to the voltage loop gain (see below).

Better methods include methods proposed by Middlebrook in 1975 that requires you to look at both the voltage (Tv) and current (Tc) transfer functions.  This would generally require you to run two different simulations or have two copies of your amp in one simulation.  Then, the combined transfer function is 1/(1+T)=1/(1+Tv)+1/(1+Tc).  For low frequencies, the Tv term almost always dominates (which is why people continue to use the same method as you did), but at high frequencies, Tc can come into play.

The main problem with the previous approach is that it assumes a zero reverse loop gain.  Since then, there has been some advances in the mathematics to account for all possible transmission paths.  Middlebrook has published one method using the Dissection Theorem, but the Spectre stb analysis uses a alternate method.  The math behind it shows that the answer should be much closer to reality, especially at high frequencies where the non-idealities dominate, than previous methods.

In short, I would trust stb, especially since it is providing the more conservative answer.
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Dipankar
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #2 - Sep 9th, 2008, 10:28am
 
Thanks .
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With Thanks and Regards,
Dipankar.
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #3 - Sep 9th, 2008, 11:49pm
 
The method used by the stb analysis of Spectre is described in http://www.kenkundert.com/docs/cd2001-01.pdf. Additional information about loop gain simulation can be found on my webpage http://www.geocities.com/frank_wiedmann/loopgain.html.
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nobody
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #4 - Sep 11th, 2008, 8:34pm
 
Hello, Frank

You use LTspice to simulate the loop gain. I was wondering if we can use the way you did in LTspice by using Hspice.
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #5 - Sep 12th, 2008, 12:13am
 
I have never worked with Hspice, so I do not know if it is possible there to combine the results for different values of a sweep variable in an expression. In case this should not be possible, you can still use several copies of your circuit in a single schematic. Each circuit would then have to be configured corresponding to one of the values of the sweep variable in LTspice.
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Tlaloc
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #6 - Sep 12th, 2008, 9:49am
 
There is not a way to directly post-process values from multiple sweeps in HSpice.  The .MEAS statement is limited to the current simulation only.  You will have to use some other tool to do that, e.g. a scripting program or Matlab.
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nobody
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #7 - Sep 14th, 2008, 2:00am
 
Hello, Tlaloc
My problem is probably what you talked about. I have no idea how to get a math calculation via HSPICE from mulitple sweeps because I need to know the result from the exact run like 1st or 2nd sweep. For LTspice, it is convient and powerful to specify what run I want by using @ operator . Thank you, all.
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nobody
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #8 - Sep 17th, 2008, 1:16am
 
Hello, Frank

I tried your way in Hspice and simulated a simple common source samplifier with shunt-shunt feedback like the one in "Striving for Small-Signal Stability". The loop-gain looks good. However, the loop-gain looks wrong if I insert the "loog gain probe" in the opposite direction like you did in your example. Plus, the loop-gain looks the same if I turn on or off the local return loops by doing the same setting in the article and the result is supposed to be different. That is strange. I wish I will figure that out soon.
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #9 - Sep 17th, 2008, 4:50am
 
I would suggest that you verify your formulas, especially the signs, and also the orientation of all the sources in the loop gain probe. There is probably an error in your formula concerning a term that is small for one direction but large for the opposite direction.
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nobody
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #10 - Sep 18th, 2008, 12:36am
 
Hello, Frank

Thanks for your reply. I use the equation T = 1 / {1 / [2(B'C-DA')+D+A'] - 1} in your example and upload a figure to how I test the circuit. I will try to verify things you talked. Thanks again
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loop2_001.JPG
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #11 - Sep 18th, 2008, 11:09am
 
I did not find an error in your drawing. To help you debug your setup in Hspice, you could simulate the same circuit with LTspice using my original loop gain probe. You could first verify that you get the same result for both orientations of the probe. After that, you could plot the results for parts of the expression for the loop gain in both Hspice and LTspice until you see where the difference comes from.
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wave
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #12 - Sep 18th, 2008, 12:47pm
 

If you are using Hspice, I believe they have the equivalent of STB.
Look in your manual.  

Eldo also has a single ended version of STB.  They didn't have a diff'l setup last I knew.

~Wave
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Tlaloc
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #13 - Sep 18th, 2008, 12:58pm
 
I personally have never seen a stb equivalent in HSPICE.  The latest version that I used was 2006, and I didn't see it there.  I haven't looked closely enough at Eldo to say one way or the other.
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nobody
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Re: stability analysis from ADE
Reply #14 - Sep 18th, 2008, 5:08pm
 
Thanks, Frank

I will try ways to verify. I will go with Tlaloc because I have never seen  the equivalent of STB or  magic "iprobe" in Hspice.
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