The Designer's Guide Community Forum

The Designer's Guide Community Forum
https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl
Simulators >> RF Simulators >> PSS pnoise Noise Type Modulated.
https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1288139744

Message started by ppg on Oct 26^th, 2010, 5:35pm

Title: PSS pnoise Noise Type Modulated.
Post by ppg on Oct 26^th, 2010, 5:35pm

Hi all,

can someone provide the exact math:
1. behind the decomposition of Output Noise V^2/Hz (or Phase Noise V^2/Hz/Carrier_H1) into 'AM and PM' components or into 'USB and LSB' components.
2. to extract (f.i. via MatLab interface) 'AM and PM' components or 'USB and LSB' components from simulation results mod1 and mod2.
A good article or text book reference will make it. Cadence help information is very confused on the matter.

Thank you.
ppg

Title: Re: PSS pnoise Noise Type Modulated.
Post by Ken Kundert on Oct 26^th, 2010, 7:56pm

See Section 6.1.2 in "Introduction to RF Simulation and its Application", http://www.designers-guide.org/Analysis/rf-sim.pdf.

-Ken

Title: Re: PSS pnoise Noise Type Modulated.
Post by ppg on Oct 27^th, 2010, 12:01pm

Hi Ken,

thank you for the reference pointer. I'll work with the formula to get relationships between Phase Noise, AM, PM, ... as plotted by ADE>Direct Plot>Main Form menu using SpectreRF results.

Related to question1:

1a. for Driven Circuits does PM modulated noise (in dBc) correspond to the phase noise measurement realized with say Agilent E5052B (mixer pll based) phase noise system? Pnoise results can not be used any more as pnoise for Driven Circuits includes a non negligeable AM modulated noise clipped by Agilent phase noise equipment.

1b. In general the output noise (V^2/Hz) is not equal to AM output noise (V^2/Hz) + PM output noise (V^2/Hz)?

Anything available for question2?

Thank you.

Regards,
ppg

Title: Re: PSS pnoise Noise Type Modulated.
Post by ppg on Oct 28^th, 2010, 10:46am

Let me clear question 1b:

after Section 6.1.2 in Reference, I get (all as Power in V^2/Hz):
. AM + PM = USB + LSB = 2 . Output Noise (from pnoise). As it should also knowing Output Noise (from pnoise) is SSB and equal to USB.

SpectreRF Simulations of a Buffer circuit (PSS driven) confirm such relation and show in addition for the considered case:
. USB = LSB = Output Noise (from pnoise).

In Section 6.1.2 it would be clearer if one adds parenthesis (see line below formula (60)) for:
L = (Ac/2) . (A - j.F) exp(- j.fc) and U = (Ac/2) . (A + j.F) exp(j.fc) .

Title: Re: PSS pnoise Noise Type Modulated.
Post by Ken Kundert on Oct 28^th, 2010, 2:52pm

I have updated the paper to include the clarifying parentheses. Thanks for pointing that out.

Concerning your questions, I am having a hard time identifying them. You have a habit of putting your questions in the form of a statements. Could you please ask your questions again (and be sure to add the question mark so that we can clearly identify them).

-Ken

Title: Re: PSS pnoise Noise Type Modulated.
Post by ppg on Oct 28^th, 2010, 5:03pm

Hi Ken,

Sorry for this, see the re-phrase below.

>>>>>
Let me here close question 1b:

After reading Section 6.1.2 in Reference, I get (with all as Power in V^2/Hz):
. AM + PM = USB + LSB = 2.Output Noise (from pnoise). Do you agree?
This is as it should be for the total Power at offsets +/-fm (first '=') and also from knowing that Output Noise (from pnoise) is SSB and equal to USB (second '='). Do you agree?

SpectreRF Simulations of a Buffer circuit (PSS driven) confirm such equations and show in addition for the considered case (with all as Power in V^2/Hz):
. USB = LSB = Output Noise (from pnoise). I believe you will confirm?
<<<<<

Other questions pending are 1a and 2 from previous.

Thank you.

Regards,
ppg