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https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl Design >> Analog Design >> Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1306434243 Message started by ipsc on May 26th, 2011, 11:24am |
Title: Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt Post by ipsc on May 26th, 2011, 11:24am The current for a diode connected BJT (base & collector shorted) is given by I = Is * exp(qVBE/kT) Now, my doubt is: what is ‘I’ here – IE or IC? My intuition is that, it has to be ‘IE’ because above eqn is similar to a normal diode eqn and the diode here is VBE. And moreover, IC is a secondary form of this diode current. It would be great, if someone can please clarify whether it is 'IE' or 'IC' and why (if possible with a reference)? |
Title: Re: Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt Post by loose-electron on May 28th, 2011, 6:14pm Its a scalar for the current that is proprotional to the diode geometry - Dig out a copy of Grey and Meyer (or newer variant has more authors these days) and its all explained in there. Treat it as Id and don't think like its a transistor anymore. Or treat it like its a bipolar, and that Vbase = Vcollector and you are done. Both are valid approaches Considering how high beta is, is it really important anyhow? |
Title: Re: Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt Post by raja.cedt on May 29th, 2011, 6:49pm hi, it is Ic only, just derive from device physics basics. I didn't understand your intuition. Again i will go with loose-electron, when you have higher beta (typically that is the case), more or less it doesn't matter. Thanks. |
Title: Re: Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt Post by ipsc on May 30th, 2011, 3:41am Thanks loose-electron & raja.cedt for your replies. @loose-electron Quote:
If I treat this way i.e. if I reduce BJT to two terminals:
Id = IE = IC+IB = Is * exp(qVBE/kT) please correct me if I am wrong. @ raja.cedt Quote:
sir, i am bit out of touch with the device physics. Could you please explain it to me conceptually/intuitively or at least methodology of derivation in brief? Quote:
But for CMOS technologies 'beta' is only in single digits, right? Regards ipsc |
Title: Re: Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt Post by boe on May 30th, 2011, 8:04am ipsc wrote on May 30th, 2011, 3:41am:
B O E |
Title: Re: Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt Post by raja.cedt on May 30th, 2011, 9:16am agree, for parasitic pnp diode beta is lesser in that case you should use IC rather than IE. Thanks. |
Title: Re: Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt Post by loose-electron on May 30th, 2011, 6:07pm If it is a good quality bipolar, Beta is on the order of 100 (YMMV) (a horizontal NPN with a thin base well structure) If it is the collector tied to substrate PNP associated with a lot of CMOS then its Beta is around 6 to 20 (YMMV) this is a lateral PNP You asked about bipolars and all of a sudden the question turns to parasitic PNP's on CMOS? |
Title: Re: Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt Post by ipsc on May 31st, 2011, 10:55pm oops... Considering the generic nature of the Question, I didn't expect that not mentioning about parasitic pnp will cause so much confusion. Let me also put in my main objective for asking this question. I am just trying to understand effects of BJT beta on a CMOS Bandgap. Hope everything is clear now !!! Now coming back to my original question, if I treat diode connected (B & C shorted) BJT as a diode and reduce it to two terminals, I will have: Termial1 = Emittor Termial2 = Collector + Base Hence the diode current 'Id' becomes: Id = IE = IC+IB = Is * exp(qVBE/kT) i.e. in the diode connected BJT current eqn, I = Is * exp(qVBE/kT) I is represented by IE not IC. But as per raja.cedt it should be IC, if we derive the eqn from device physics basics. Now, the question is where am I going wrong in my analysis? Regards ipsc |
Title: Re: Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt Post by boe on Jun 1st, 2011, 12:51am Ipsc, Since IB = IC/β, Id = IE = IC + IB = (1+1/β)*IC. Therefore, IE = Is1*exp(qVBE/kT), with Is1 = (1+1/β)*Is. B O E |
Title: Re: Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt Post by Alexandar on Jun 1st, 2011, 1:48am loose-electron wrote on May 28th, 2011, 6:14pm:
Well, you are less effected by the variations on Rb, which is nice. |
Title: Re: Diode Connected BJT: Current Eqn:: a fundamental doubt Post by loose-electron on Jun 4th, 2011, 1:51pm The equations you are going back to are "academic simplifications" - good for illustration of concepts. However, I would not design a circuit based upon them. Take the foundry provided models and work with those. If you want bias curves, take the foundry models and do a DC sweep curve set. |
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