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https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl Design >> RF Design >> Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1372412763 Message started by harpoon on Jun 28th, 2013, 2:46am |
Title: Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL Post by harpoon on Jun 28th, 2013, 2:46am Hi all, I am implementing an on-chip cap multiplier to so that the loop filter of my PLL can be integrated onto the chip. I have seen several papers on this ... but no one seems to address the issue of reduced resistance across input voltage (vco tuning voltage) range ... i.e. when the current mirrors go out of saturation. Does anyone have any comments on this ? The circuit is shown here ... ![]() Thanks. |
Title: Re: Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL Post by harpoon on Jun 28th, 2013, 2:52am Here are some equations ... Ceff = (1+B) * Ci Rin = 1/go of the PMOS and NMOS cascode at node A Thanks for having a look ... |
Title: Re: Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL Post by Kevin Aylward on Jul 7th, 2013, 2:01am Capacitance multipliers are those sort of topologies that many like to write impressive reading papers about, but arguably, have little practical use in these real 3 universes, in my opinion. Typically, issues are either noise being multiplied up by the same factor and/or signal handling going down by the same ratio. If it were me, I would look for another solution. |
Title: Re: Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL Post by harpoon on Jul 8th, 2013, 3:14pm Hi Kevin, Thanks for your comment ... However, I am pretty sure this has been implemented in silicon before, esp in PLLs ... anyone care to discuss their experience ? |
Title: Re: Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL Post by tm123 on Jul 9th, 2013, 8:54am harpoon, If this PLL is of the fractional N type, I would be extremely concerned about this cap multiplier increasing fractional spurs. In general the charge pump nonlinearity is the main issue but anything nonlinear in the loop will increase spurs. I agree with Kevin in that I have seen papers mentioning this approach, but the added noise/nonlinearity/stability issues will probably end up outweighing any benefit. Hope this helps. Tim |
Title: Re: Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL Post by Kevin Aylward on Jul 9th, 2013, 11:06am Yes, I am sure the are many that implement questionable designs in silicon :-) Consider an amp set to a gain of 100 with the cap across it to increases its effective value. Its input via the resistor, with the output taken from the cap/amp input junction as a filter. Although the output of the amp is never looked at, it still swings the input volts multiplied by 100. If the input DC moves 0.5V, the output wants to move 500V which it can’t, so it won’t. Current mode gets deeper into the S*&£. Its not worth the agro, trust me. |
Title: Re: Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL Post by tm123 on Jul 9th, 2013, 11:59am Kevin, I understand your explanation. I think we are in agreement that the benefit of a cap multiplier in this case is not worth the tradeoffs of worse noise, worse linearity and worse stability performance. |
Title: Re: Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL Post by Kevin Aylward on Jul 9th, 2013, 12:04pm So you agree 100 X 0.5 is 500 :) |
Title: Re: Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL Post by tm123 on Jul 9th, 2013, 12:05pm Only for large values of 0.5 ;D |
Title: Re: Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL Post by harpoon on Aug 13th, 2013, 4:31am it is for a simple integer-n PLL ... thanks for the comments ... I think I'll just use a bigger real cap ! (and tweak other loop params). |
Title: Re: Capacitance multiplier in loop filter of a PLL Post by loose-electron on Aug 18th, 2013, 11:31am harpoon wrote on Aug 13th, 2013, 4:31am:
Generally there are lots of knobs available to adjust. Scale the charge pump current down and see what you can do to get the C down. |
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