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Design >> RF Design >> DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
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Message started by TurboV on Jun 1^st, 2015, 10:31pm

Title: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by TurboV on Jun 1^st, 2015, 10:31pm

[edit]Hello. I'm not an electrical engineer nor do I have any RF background. Can anyone with RF background and experience with DE capsulation tell me once a decap is done on an IC (chip) is it possible to determine if the octagonal shaped structures represent a transmitter or a transceiver device ? This is under the assumption that the engineer examining the top layer of the die where the RF structures/design are located does not know anything about origins of the IC and from which system is it from ?

Lastly is it possible to perform a decap on a IC (plastic molded packages ) using a kitchen micro wave appliance ?
[/edit]

Title: Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by loose-electron on Jun 2^nd, 2015, 11:43am

nitric acid is used to decap plastic packaged parts.

there are companies that do reverse engineering of devices.

Title: Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by TurboV on Jun 2^nd, 2015, 4:17pm

loose-electron wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2015, 11:43am:

nitric acid is used to decap plastic packaged parts.

there are companies that do reverse engineering of devices.

Thank you for the reply. Would you know whether it is possible to perform a de cap using a kitchen household appliance on a IC which packaged using a plastic material ?

Title: Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by loose-electron on Jun 5^th, 2015, 11:22am

TurboV wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2015, 4:17pm:

loose-electron wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2015, 11:43am:

nitric acid is used to decap plastic packaged parts.

there are companies that do reverse engineering of devices.

Thank you for the reply. Would you know whether it is possible to perform a de cap using a kitchen household appliance on a IC which packaged using a plastic material ?

kitchen household appliance? Probably not. The nitric acid method is most commonly used.

Title: Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by wave on Jun 5^th, 2015, 2:06pm

Scarily enough there is a DIY way.
http://www.t4f.org/articles/ultra-low-cost-ic-decapsulation/

Still, I think I'd rather go down the street and pay a Pro $50 do it.

Wave :)

Title: Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by TurboV on Jun 6^th, 2015, 5:59pm

wave wrote on Jun 5^th, 2015, 2:06pm:

Scarily enough there is a DIY way.
http://www.t4f.org/articles/ultra-low-cost-ic-decapsulation/

Still, I think I'd rather go down the street and pay a Pro $50 do it.

Wave :)

Hello and thanks for the post. But can anyone else answer that once an IC has been de-capped and the top most layer examined under a microscope one can say the IC has a transceiver circuit design ? Another words the IC is capable of wireless communication.

Title: Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by aaron_do on Jun 7^th, 2015, 6:40pm

If you see a lot of spirals, then there's a good chance.

Title: Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by loose-electron on Jun 9^th, 2015, 1:37pm

Acid decap:

https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/7/a/6/9/c/51c0d009ce395feb33000000.jpg

mostly Logic and some analog:

http://i.stack.imgur.com/whWVa.jpg

All logic and memory banks

http://www.break-ic.com/microprocessor-read/images/atmega88c_sm.jpg

Mixed Signal ADC and DAC:

http://s.zeptobars.ru/MC33152-HD.jpg

Looking for a good example of an RF chip (with the usual inductors in the LNA, Mixer etc)

Title: Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by wave on Jun 9^th, 2015, 5:27pm

TurboV wrote on Jun 6^th, 2015, 5:59pm:

I guess my thoughts and question is - what is the motivation of this question?
Is this a (crazy?) conspiracy theory that someone is spying on you?

Most systems have wired transceivers for USB, etc.
RF/Wireless transceivers are possible but not particularly practical unless the larger box is designed for such.
Any antenna in a chip would be very high frequency and/or lossy, so short range communications only.
For longer distance communication you'd need a Power Amp and good antenna someplace. Those are very difficult to hide as auxiliary circuits in a system IC.

:-?

Title: Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by TurboV on Jul 1^st, 2015, 11:49pm

aaron_do wrote on Jun 7^th, 2015, 6:40pm:

If you see a lot of spirals, then there's a good chance.

do you mean inductors ?

Title: Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by TurboV on Jul 1^st, 2015, 11:49pm

wave wrote on Jun 9^th, 2015, 5:27pm:

TurboV wrote on Jun 6^th, 2015, 5:59pm:

Ah no that was the reason behind the post but thanks for the follow up

Title: Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Post by TurboV on Jul 1^st, 2015, 11:52pm

loose-electron wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2015, 11:43am:

nitric acid is used to decap plastic packaged parts.

there are companies that do reverse engineering of devices.

Would you know of any companies which are familiar with either one of the following:

1. Qualcomm Snapdragon IC design
2. Chinese "backdoor" RF IC

Would you recommend a company(s) which are experienced in reversing ? I already have Chipworks on this list. Would you know of any others ?