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https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl Simulators >> RF Simulators >> Reference sideband setting in Pnoise https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1038418160 Message started by Aigneryu on Nov 27th, 2002, 1:13am |
Title: Reference sideband setting in Pnoise Post by Aigneryu on Nov 27th, 2002, 1:13am When I use Spectre to perform Pnoise simulation, I was really confused with the reference side band setting. Referred to the SpectreRF User Guide, a typical down conversion mixer should be simulated with the "-1" ref side band to calculate IF noise. When I design a harmonic mixer which uses the 2nd harmonic of LO to mix with the RF signal, is it correct to set the ref sideband to "-2"? Again, when I design a divide-by-2 circuit, and I want to calculate its phase noise, which ref side band should I use? And how about the pfd? |
Title: Re: Reference sideband setting in Pnoise Post by Jitter Man on Nov 27th, 2002, 11:43am You specifically ask about computing the phase noise of a frequency divider and a phase/frequency detector. In both cases you should follow the procedure laid out in http://www.designers-guide.com/Analysis/PLLnoise+jitter.pdf, in which case you would be looking only at the output noise, and not the input referred noise or noise figure. refsideband is only used to compute the input noise, and is not used when computing output noise. Artist forces you to give a value for refsideband, but since you never look at the noise as referred to the input, it doesn't really matter what value you give. I recommend that you give 0. [glb]Jitter Man[/glb] |
Title: Re: Reference sideband setting in Pnoise Post by Ken Kundert on Nov 27th, 2002, 12:54pm The Jitter Man is right. The refsideband parameter is used to determine the input frequency. It is used when computing either the input referred noise or the noise figure. The PNoise analysis directly computes the output noise, and to compute either the input referred noise or the noise figure, it must divide through by the gain. To compute the gain, it must know the location and frequency of both the output and the input. To do the noise analysis you had to specify the output, which you generally do by specifying a pair of output nodes. You specify the output frequency when you specify the noise analysis frequency sweep range. To compute the input referred noise or the noise figure you also need to specify the input sources. If the source is either a voltage or current source, you get the input referred noise. If the source is a port, you get the noise figure. However, just specifying the name of the source is not enough. It must also know the input frequency, which you specify using refsideband. The input frequency is related to refsideband as follows ... |fin| = |refsideband*fPSS + fout| In other words, refsideband is the amount that the input frequency differs from that of the output frequency and is measured in multiples of the PSS fundamental frequency (the clock or LO frequency). It is constrained to be an integer. Consider a circuit that has a PSS fundamental frequency of 1GHz. Further consider performing a PNoise analysis of that circuit and focus on one point in that noise analysis, the point where the output frequency is 1MHz.
In this example, the quantity of interest is the single-sideband spot noise. If you want to know the phase noise, you would use the procedure I described in my paper on phase noise, which involves computing the strobed noise and dividing through by the slew rate at the threshold crossing. Here you are only using the ouput noise, which is unaffected by refsideband. -Ken |
Title: Re: Reference sideband setting in Pnoise Post by Aigneryu on Nov 27th, 2002, 6:14pm Dear Ken and Jitter Man: Thank both of you very much. The output noise spectrum should not be affected by the refsideband settings, and that is why I see the same results with different refsideband settings. Thank you again! :) |
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