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AC and transient gain are different in spectre (Read 7426 times)
milkdragon
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AC and transient gain are different in spectre
Mar 01st, 2006, 9:22am
 
Hi

Is anyone has the problem that the gain in AC is different in transient simulation?  I have a receiver which has a good input matching (< -10dB) @ LNA input.  AC wise shows about 20dB gain.  However, transient simulation is showing a good match to AC at high frequency and gradually decreasing in gain with frequency, given fixed input power at the input port (50ohm).  I have checked that the gain difference @ lower frequency is mainly due to the voltage swing at the input port is lower.  Anyone has any idea? Thank you very much
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Jess Chen
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Re: AC and transient gain are different in spectre
Reply #1 - Mar 1st, 2006, 11:26am
 
If you are working with a receiver, are you computing a transfer function from an RF input to a baseband or IF output? If so, are you using an RF simulator like SpectreRF, EldoRF, or Golden Gate?

If you are looking at part of the receiver that does involve frequency conversion, the first thing that comes to mind is saturation. A transient analysis would account for saturation. Whether an AC analysis accounted for saturation would depend on the DC operating point and even so, it would not necessarily give the same result as a transient analysis.

-Jess
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milkdragon
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Re: AC and transient gain are different in spectre
Reply #2 - Mar 1st, 2006, 12:18pm
 
Thank you for your reply

Yes i am using Spectre, i don't know if i am using spectreRF as there is no this option in the ADE, so i simply choose spectre.

I use a small signal input (-70dBm).  I have checked that it is not in saturation

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Jess Chen
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Re: AC and transient gain are different in spectre
Reply #3 - Mar 1st, 2006, 5:26pm
 
Does your receiver have a mixer driven by an LO? And are you trying to compute the transfer function from the RF input to the baseband or IF output?

OR, are you trying to compute the transfer function of across part of the receiver that does not include the mixer?

-Jess
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milkdragon
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Re: AC and transient gain are different in spectre
Reply #4 - Mar 1st, 2006, 7:27pm
 
Yes, the receiver includes the mixer which is driven by LO.  I tried different frequency, the match point is @ high freq and gradually decreasing in gain toward low freq.  The funny thing is when i use FFT to plot the signal at the input, the swing is higher at lower freq that account for the gain difference, given the same output swing at the mixer output over freq. That does not make sense to me as i have a good matching plus same input power for all freq
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Jess Chen
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Re: AC and transient gain are different in spectre
Reply #5 - Mar 1st, 2006, 9:22pm
 
Let's get back to your original question:

Why don't your AC and transient analyses of the agree on the transfer function from RF input to baseband/IF output?

Assuming I paraphrased your question correctly, there is no way your AC and transient analysis should give the same results. Your transient analysis is probably OK but your AC analysis is meaningless because for AC analysis, Spectre linearizes the circuit about a DC operating point. The linearization locks the LO to whatever voltage it has at time zero and leaves it there. Your circuit is time varying but your AC analysis assumes the circuit is time-invariant; Your AC analysis is performed about a DC operating point that does not exist because the LO is not a DC signal.

Please forgive me if I have misunderstood your question.

-Jess
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milkdragon
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Re: AC and transient gain are different in spectre
Reply #6 - Mar 2nd, 2006, 8:35am
 
Sorry that i were not clear enough in the previous message.  

I were doing simulation for the whole receiver.  However, i measured the total gain AND also the gain of the LNA.  Yes, there is no way to do AC for the whole chain.  So i used the AC to get the transfer function of the LNA and compare it with the transient simulation using DFT.  What i found out was, given the same input power at the input port, i saw almost the same output swing at the LNA output.  However, the swing at the input is different that made gain difference across frequency as a result.
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Jess Chen
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Re: AC and transient gain are different in spectre
Reply #7 - Mar 2nd, 2006, 11:24am
 
I guess I don't fully understand your question but it seems like you are wondering why you see different results with different methods of measuring the gain of just your LNA. To determine which method is right and which one needs work, I suggest replacing your LNA with a behavioral model. You can find such models in the rfLib or write your own in VerilogA. You can even use ideal voltage-controlled-voltage sources. With a behavioral model, you can specify the gain and match the terminals perfectly. Since you know exactly what gain you have, when you try the different methods of simulation you can quickly spot which one needs work.

-Jess
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milkdragon
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Re: AC and transient gain are different in spectre
Reply #8 - Mar 2nd, 2006, 2:44pm
 
Yes, that's what i am trying to do.  Thank you very much
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