The Designer's Guide Community
Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register. Please follow the Forum guidelines.
Jul 31st, 2024, 5:32am
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Influence of hierarchy on simulation (Read 3804 times)
Lex
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 201
Eindhoven, Holland
Influence of hierarchy on simulation
Apr 03rd, 2012, 2:00am
 
Hi simulator guru's!

Suppose we compare a flat design versus a hierarchical design. My question is: does the hierarchy influence the simulation run time?

Presumably, netlisting will take longer for the flat one, but what about the actual simulation? To keep the comparison fair, let's assume the same amount of nodes is saved, and that the amount of saved nodes is small. So with respect to simulation run time, is it beneficial to use hierarchy?
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Lex
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 201
Eindhoven, Holland
Re: Influence of hierarchy on simulation
Reply #1 - Apr 12th, 2012, 4:25am
 
Nobody?
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Geoffrey_Coram
Senior Fellow
******
Offline



Posts: 1999
Massachusetts, USA
Re: Influence of hierarchy on simulation
Reply #2 - Apr 13th, 2012, 11:56am
 
The circuit matrix in Spice is flat, so I don't think there would be any difference.  You might get something, though, if the elements are ordered differently -- eg, if all the MOS models are placed sequentially in the flat netlist, then you might find the simulation goes faster because the MOS evaluation code is already in the CPU's L1 cache, compared with a hierarchical netlist that has different element types shuffled around.  But if it made a large difference, the simulators would sort the elements by type, or they might run all MOS elements on one CPU/thread, and others on a different thread.
Back to top
 
 

If at first you do succeed, STOP, raise your standards, and stop wasting your time.
View Profile WWW   IP Logged
Lex
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 201
Eindhoven, Holland
Re: Influence of hierarchy on simulation
Reply #3 - Apr 17th, 2012, 1:40am
 
Okay thanks Geoffrey! Can I conclude from your answer that for spice, it is best to have as much L1/L2/L3 cache and that the calculations are essentially memory access limited?

Do you know whether it helps to apply unidirectional circuit elements (voltage/current controlled voltage/current sources) to speed up simulation? Or are there cases when it actually slows down simulation? I can imagine (correct me if i'm wrong) that due to the irregularities such sources add in the Jacobi it might go both ways.
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Geoffrey_Coram
Senior Fellow
******
Offline



Posts: 1999
Massachusetts, USA
Re: Influence of hierarchy on simulation
Reply #4 - Apr 17th, 2012, 4:47am
 
Are you using Berkeley Spice 3f5?  Or a commercial tool?  Do you know if you have a sparse matrix solver?

I would expect that adding anything to the circuit would make it go slower; voltage sources in particular add matrix rows.  Though I suppose there will be cases where it would go faster.

"Small" circuits are dominated by element evaluation time, and "large" by matrix solution time, but what "small" and "large" are may depend on your simulator, the cache sizes, and the types of elements.
Back to top
 
 

If at first you do succeed, STOP, raise your standards, and stop wasting your time.
View Profile WWW   IP Logged
Lex
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 201
Eindhoven, Holland
Re: Influence of hierarchy on simulation
Reply #5 - Apr 24th, 2012, 2:12am
 
I'm using a commercial tool (Eldo).

Thanks for the insight, Geoffrey!
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Copyright 2002-2024 Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. Designer’s Guide® is a registered trademark of Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. All rights reserved. Send comments or questions to editor@designers-guide.org. Consider submitting a paper or model.