The Designer's Guide Community
Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register. Please follow the Forum guidelines.
Aug 18th, 2024, 12:27pm
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
convergence help (Read 9836 times)
RobertZ
Community Member
***
Offline

the art of analog

Posts: 55
San Diego, CA
convergence help
Jun 07th, 2005, 12:22pm
 
Hi, all,

When I set up DC simulation and sweep temperature in spectre, sometimes output voltage is a smooth line, but sometmes it has a big step, which is undesireable. (I did not change anything in the schematic and simulation setting, just repeated simulation) In the last case, I noticed that gmin and source methods failed and at last dptran was used.

How can resolve this problem?
Many Thanks.

Back to top
 
 

Thanks,
Robert
View Profile   IP Logged
Ken Kundert
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2386
Silicon Valley
Re: convergence help
Reply #1 - Jun 7th, 2005, 2:39pm
 
It is probably a feature of your circuit rather than a problem with the simulator. If you sweep temperature in the opposite direction, you will probably see classic hysteresis behavior.

-Ken

Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW   IP Logged
RobertZ
Community Member
***
Offline

the art of analog

Posts: 55
San Diego, CA
Re: convergence help
Reply #2 - Jun 7th, 2005, 8:56pm
 
Hi, Ken,

I did not quite catch what you said. In my mind, I thought temperature sweep is memeryless, meaning the simulator solves the circuit at each temperature point independantly and plot the results.

Btw, I am designing a bandgap circuit. When I sweep temperature in the opposite direction, the result is always smooth; when I sweep temperature from -40 to 125, there always a big jump.



Back to top
 
 

Thanks,
Robert
View Profile   IP Logged
Ken Kundert
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2386
Silicon Valley
Re: convergence help
Reply #3 - Jun 7th, 2005, 11:24pm
 
When a circuit exhibits a jump like you are describing it is because it has solution curve that has folds in it, as shown with the solid line below.



Here the horizontal axis represents temperature and the vertical axis represents a signal value, say the output voltage.

Starting from the left, the temperature increases until it reaches the lower fold, at which point the output voltage jumps discontinuously. In this case it jumps up to the upper part of the curve (dashed upward facing arrow). If the temperature then began to decrease, the output voltage would stay on the upper part of the curve until it reached the upper fold, at which point it would jump down to the lower part of the curve (dashed downward facing arrow). In this way, the voltage/temperature curve would exhibit classic hysteresis.

If you started at a point between the two folds, then going up you would see a jump, but going down you would not because the upper fold occurs at a temperature less than -40C.

You are almost correct in your belief that DC sweeps are memoryless. To speed up DC sweeps, Spectre extrapolates from the previous solution point to the next. It then starts the DC iteration from the extrapolated point. This tends to cause Spectre to faithfully follow the curve as long as it can. It is this extrapolation that represents the memory in the DC sweep.

-Ken
Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW   IP Logged
RobertZ
Community Member
***
Offline

the art of analog

Posts: 55
San Diego, CA
Re: convergence help
Reply #4 - Jun 8th, 2005, 12:39am
 
Hi, Ken,

BIG thanks for your kind reply and explanation!!! Grin

By talking about the folds in the solution curve, does this mean the circuit has mutiple solutions at certain temperature range?

I will try to enlarge the sweep range to find out the hysteresis tomorrow (I have no simulator at home, Smiley )

-driveforece


Back to top
 
 

Thanks,
Robert
View Profile   IP Logged
Ken Kundert
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2386
Silicon Valley
Re: convergence help
Reply #5 - Jun 8th, 2005, 7:05am
 
Yes, from what you have told me, I believe your circuit has two stable and one unstable operating points at temperatures below where the jump occurs.

-Ken
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2005, 12:34pm by Ken Kundert »  
View Profile WWW   IP Logged
RobertZ
Community Member
***
Offline

the art of analog

Posts: 55
San Diego, CA
Re: convergence help
Reply #6 - Jun 8th, 2005, 9:19am
 
mmm..... got it.

Thank you very much,

-driveforce
Back to top
 
 

Thanks,
Robert
View Profile   IP Logged
RobertZ
Community Member
***
Offline

the art of analog

Posts: 55
San Diego, CA
Re: convergence help
Reply #7 - Jun 14th, 2005, 9:52am
 
Hi, Ken,

I did not find the jump when I sweep temperature from 125 to -100.

But if I change gmin from 1e-12 to 1e-15, there is no jump from either direction. Does this mean the circuit has no mutiple solution problem?

-driveforce
Back to top
 
 

Thanks,
Robert
View Profile   IP Logged
Ken Kundert
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2386
Silicon Valley
Re: convergence help
Reply #8 - Jun 14th, 2005, 10:27pm
 
I don't know. I don't understand how changing gmin would affect the situation.

-Ken
Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW   IP Logged
sheldon
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 751

Re: convergence help
Reply #9 - Jun 15th, 2005, 1:20am
 
driveforce,

  Are all of the devices in circuit properly biased? In the past, we
have seen issues when the gmin loaded nodes because the transistors
were all biased off. In our case, by increasing the tolerance of gmin,
the effect of device leakage currents became larger then the effect of
gmin and the circuit setup properly. After we corrected the underlying
circuit issue, the default gmin was sufficient.

                                                                        Best Regards,

                                                                              Sheldon
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
RobertZ
Community Member
***
Offline

the art of analog

Posts: 55
San Diego, CA
Re: convergence help
Reply #10 - Jun 15th, 2005, 9:42am
 
Hi, Ken and Sheldon,

Thanks for your replys.

Unfortunately, changing gmin from 1e-12 to 1e-15 couldn't (and seems impossible to) solve the multiple solutions (one is 1.2V and the other is 0.5V at low temperatures) problem. Right now, I think my start up circuit is kind of weak.

Best
driveforce

Back to top
 
 

Thanks,
Robert
View Profile   IP Logged
ywguo
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 943
Shanghai, PRC
Re: convergence help
Reply #11 - Jul 14th, 2005, 2:16am
 
Hi, driveforce,

A bandgap reference has more than one steady state. So a start-up circuitry is required to make the bandgap reference work in the desired point. Many textbooks describe this feature of a bandgap circuit.

I think your start-up circuitry doesn't work at very low temperature. It is easy to correct it.


Best regards,

Yawei

Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Copyright 2002-2024 Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. Designer’s Guide® is a registered trademark of Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. All rights reserved. Send comments or questions to editor@designers-guide.org. Consider submitting a paper or model.