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slew rate simulation question (Read 257 times)
chungmnig
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slew rate simulation question
Jun 30th, 2006, 4:59am
 
Hi~~
i have a question about how to simulate slew rate in fully differential switched cap CMFB OPA?
like attached file
Why using 1M Ohm? is more larger more better?
and why using 6.8pF cap as unit gain , why don't use other number?
thanks~~!!
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sheldon
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Re: slew rate simulation question
Reply #1 - Jun 30th, 2006, 6:11pm
 
Chungming,

1) Using a 1M resistor allows the OTA to setup to the correct input
   dc common level without requiring the switching. In general,
   a larger value would be better since it effects the circuit less.

2) The value of the capacitor is not related to the gain. The ratio
   of the input capacitor and feedback capacitor sets the gain, -Cin/Cf.
   
Having said that, there are some other things you might want to
consider when creating testbenches:

1) My philosophy would be that the testbench should not effect the
   measurement. So I would use an analysis dependent switch

   VCM  (vcm    0)  vsource dc=common_mode_level
   SCN  ( vcm inp) switch position=1 ac_position=0
   SCI   ( vcm inn) switch position=1 ac_position=0

   Now for the dc operating point calculation, the dc level is the
   forced to the common-mode level, however, for ac analysis
   the nodes float.

2) As mentioned, the ratio of the input and feedback capacitor
   ratio determine the gain, not the absolute value of the capacitor.
   However, slew rate is determined by the maximum value of the
   output current and the total capacitance at the output node.

   slew rate = dV/dT = Iout, max/ Ctotal = Iout, total / ( Cfeedback + Cload)

   or

   slew rate = Iout, max / ( 6.8pF + 15pF).

  So slew rate is proportional to the value of the feedback capacitor.

   Additional discussion:
   If you have access to Ken's book "The Designer's Guide to SPICE and Spectre",
   you might want to review pages 67 to 106. He discusses various methods for
   measuring the stability of feedback amplifiers. He also illustrates some "best
   practices for testbench development".  Sorry my version is a little repititive
   for emphasis.

   a) If possible, make the measurement in-situ, that is, as the circuit is intended
       to be used. The results for the testbenches with the LC network to "open" the
       loop are not the same as the measurements with the loop closed.

   b) Observing the phenomena should not alter the phenomena, that is, making
       a measurement should not change the result. For example, using the VCVS
       eliminates the effect of the feedback netwotk loading the circuit and changes
       the results.

   c) Measure the parameter of interest, that is, if you want to understand stability
       measure the loop gain not the open loop gain of the amplifier. The two port
       measurement allows the designer to separately measure the forward and reverse
       characteristics. Using this information, it is easy to see why using the amplifier
       open loop gain is not appropriate for analyzing loop gain(for the example circuit).
       At high frequency, the effect of loading on feedback network can not be ignored
       when calculating the loop characterisitcs.

                                                                             Best Regards,

                                                                                 Sheldon
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chungmnig
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Re: slew rate simulation question
Reply #2 - Jul 1st, 2006, 8:55pm
 
Hi~~~sheldon

thanks for your detail reply ~~~ Smiley
and if choose Cload=3p F, feedback & input capccitor = 1pF
the attached file is the simulation result
slew rate = Iout,max / (Cload+Cfeedbacd) = 33.64u/4p = 8.41 V/us , is it right ?
and  left diagram of   attached file is the Voutp-Voutn result (step =0.4V) , i directly  use calculator to calculate slew rate only = 1V/us .......why? ?
is using calculator to calculate slew rate not correct?

And if i use larger feedback & input capacitor the slew rate will degrade. (Cfeedback & Ci = 5p  ,slew rate = 6.9 V/us )
Why not the saame as Cfeedback=1p  ,  slew rate will dependent on not only the ratio of feedback and input  but also the value of feedback & input capacitor......???

thanks~~~!!!

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sheldon
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Re: slew rate simulation question
Reply #3 - Jul 3rd, 2006, 3:57am
 
Chungming,

   First, is the current you show the current in the output transistor or the
current in the tail source?

   There is an assumption when you calculate the slew rate that the circuit's
performance is slew rate limited. In your case, it appears that the circuit
is bandwidth limited. That is, the pulse response is determined by time
constant of the circuit, tau = gm/C. If you look at the current plot, the
circuit's response is hardly disturbed from steady-state. In slew rate limiting,
the current should go from full off, 0uA,  to mid-range, ~30uA[settled],
to full on, 60uA, to mid-range, 30uA[settled] and then repeat.

 There is a dependence on the capacitor ratio because the circuit bandwidth
limited. That is, for gain of -3[3pF/1pF] the bandwidth is less than the when
the gain is -1[5pF/5pF]. When the gain is -1, the bandwidth is 3x wider and
the circuit starts to slew rate limit.  

 Could you try again, with a gain of -1 and Ci=1pF and Cf=1pF? This should
eliminate bandwidth as a constraint and the circuit should be slew rate limited.
Also, could you describe how you setup the slew rate measurement?

                                                                               Best Regards,

                                                                                  Sheldon
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sheldon
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Re: slew rate simulation question
Reply #4 - Jul 3rd, 2006, 4:40pm
 
Chungming,

   Some additional comments:

1) The difference in bandwidth is 2x not 3x.

2) One other effect maybe contributing the results you see. Slew rate limiting occurs because the
   input level is outside the "linear range" of the input stage's transconductance, gm. For large
   differential input voltages, the output current saturates and this saturation causes slew rate
   limiting.  

   --> To force the amplifier to saturate, increase the input step size.

                                                                                             Best Regards,

                                                                                                Sheldon
   
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chungmnig
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Re: slew rate simulation question
Reply #5 - Jul 3rd, 2006, 5:23pm
 
Hi~~~~sheldon~~~~ Smiley

The current is  output stage 's current , not tail current.
The attached file is my simulation result
Right  is fully differential OTA with 3pF capacitor load, differential input voltage = 1V .
Left above is Ci=Cf=1pF , i think it is not slew rate limit.
Left below is Ci=Cf=20pF , the current reach almost zero current ,  Is it means slew rate limit occurs?
Is slew rate = Iout,max/(Cload+Cf) = 302.2u /(3p+20p) = 13.14 V/us ?

And why i use the same ratio  Ci / Cf =1 , but the behavior of circuit is not the same ?
thanks~~~!!!!!!
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sheldon
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Re: slew rate simulation question
Reply #6 - Jul 3rd, 2006, 7:11pm
 
Chungming,

  It is a little hard to tell how the circuit is working from the schematic, assuming
that sources of the n-channels are grounded. Then the output stage of your design
has adaptive biasing so the heavier the load the higher the drive current. My
previous comments are not applicable when  the amplifier has adaptive biasing.
Basically, for light loading, 1pF, you see the circuits intrinsic behavior and for  
heavy loading you see the effect of the adaptive biasing, 20pF. So the difference
in the results occurs because the slew rate is boosted for heavier loads.

                                                                           Best Regards,
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chungmnig
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Re: slew rate simulation question
Reply #7 - Jul 3rd, 2006, 8:14pm
 
sheldon~~ Undecided
Now i confused..........
This OTA named as "Two-stage Class A/AB" finding in  a book "The design of low voltage low power sigma delta modulators" , it is also a JSSC paper.
In that book , he say  "The two stage class A/AB amplifier combines a simple differential-pair as the first stage with a class A/B second stage wherein push-pull operation is implemented through the use of current mirrors.  Slew limiting only occurs in the first stage"
Is that means as you said ?
And what is adaptive biasing?

The attached file is another OTA , Is it has slew rate limiting? the nmos reach zero current, or the current behavior must full off, 0uA,  to mid-range, ~30uA "[settled]"   like you said?
(Cin = Cfeedback =1pF , Cload = 0.4pF)

The most important
how simulate the slew rate? ...... only simulate first stage?

thanks a lot~~!!!


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sheldon
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Re: slew rate simulation question
Reply #8 - Jul 8th, 2006, 2:57am
 
Chungming,

  From the simulation testbench, it looks like you are simulating slew rate correctly. However,
this circuit may not have a simple, single-valued, linear slew rate. The circuit is an two-stage
OTA that includes local feedback in the first stage and a push-pull drive in the second stage
to boost the slew rate. These enhancements significantly improve dynamic performance of the
amplifier. However, they also introduce some non-linearity to the stage, that is, the slew rate
is not constant. For larger overdrive the amplifier slews faster. Since it is difficult to measure
"slew rate", probably the most important thing to do it to use the actual circuit and input conditions
to measure the slew rate. In the end what is important is how the OTA works in your application.

                                                                                           Best Regards,

                                                                                                Sheldon
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chungmnig
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Re: slew rate simulation question
Reply #9 - Jul 8th, 2006, 9:06pm
 

sheldon~~~~~

I really very appreciate your suggestion~~!!!!

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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