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Phase noise and amplitude noise (Read 4258 times)
rfmems
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Phase noise and amplitude noise
Jan 01st, 2008, 5:12am
 
SpectreRF can not distinguish phase noise and amplitude noise. Therefore the simulated VCO phase noise is actually phase noise and amplitude noise. However, the help from cadence says that, since VCO has amplitude limit mechanism, close to carrier noise is mostly phase noise.

The question is, for voltage biased VCO, I believe its true. But for current biased VCO, there is no such obvious amplitude limitation. Then, can we still say that most of the noise is phase noise? If not, how can we fairly compare the noise performance of two kinds of VCOs?

The same questions for the VCO buffers and frequency dividers, apprently the simulated phase noise is actually again AM and PM noises. The more the wave form  saturated, the more phase noise than am noise. But there is not way to tell how much of them is phase noise.

Please help me if you have some hints, thanks a lot.

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Ken Kundert
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Re: Phase noise and amplitude noise
Reply #1 - Jan 2nd, 2008, 1:17am
 
You are wrong when you say SpectreRF cannot distinguish between phase noise and amplitude noise; it simply combines them by default. You can request that they be reported separately.

In all real oscillators the phase noise dominates over the amplitude noise. This is because in all real oscillators there is some mechanism that acts to control the amplitude, and that mechanism also suppresses amplitude noise.

The way to compare noise in oscillators, buffers, limiters, etc. is by determining the effect of the noise on subsequent stages. If the oscillator drives a switching mixer, then amplitude noise of the oscillator is probably not important because it will have little effect on the behavior of the mixer.

-Ken
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rfmems
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Re: Phase noise and amplitude noise
Reply #2 - Jan 2nd, 2008, 1:06pm
 
Thanks Ken!

Yes, SpectreRF can distiguish amplitude noise and phase noise, what I am trying to find out is how can they be reported seperately. I just could not find anything about this from cadence documents.

Could you please let me know how can SpectreRF report the AM noise and PN noise seprately, thanks!

The reason I try to find out the exact amount of phase noise and amplitude noise, is that I think different VCOs could have different AM noise suppression mechanisms or different level of suppression, so it will be interesting to know them seperately not combined.
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: Phase noise and amplitude noise
Reply #3 - Jan 3rd, 2008, 12:49am
 
In order to separate the noise into AM and PM components, select Noise Type "modulated" in the pnoise setup in ADE, then use "Results -> Direct Plot -> Main Form" to plot the results. SpectreRF does not compute AM and PM components directly, it needs the help of ADE to do this. From "spectre -h pnoise":

Phase Noise measurements are possible using the Analog Artist(ADE) environment. Two pnoise analyses are preconfigured for this simulation and most of the parameters are set by Artist. First pnoise analysis named `mod1' is a regular noise analysis and can be used independently. The second pnoise correlation analysis called `mod2' has a limited use outside of the Artist environment. Direct Plot is configured to analyze these results and combine several wave forms to measure AM and PM components of the output noise. For details, please see the SpectreRF User Guide.
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