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Why while testing an AMPLIFIER (test chip) in feedback configuration both R-C fe (Read 15381 times)
Manas
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Re: Why while testing an AMPLIFIER (test chip) in feedback configuration both R-C fe
Reply #15 - Feb 18th, 2010, 4:06am
 
[quote author=pancho_hideboo link=1266231079/0#13 date=1266482886]Manas wrote on Feb 17th, 2010, 9:52pm:
I MEAN TO SAY THAT ANY SPURIOUS CHARGE CAN BE REMOVED BECAUSE OF OPAMP ACTION
AND IN THE STEADY STATE IT WILL BE SAME AS IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CHARGE IN THE CAP.
Not correct.

First, Vx is a floating node. So Qx can not be removed.
Second, it could result in stagnated bias points. So OP Amp can't work correctly.

Manas wrote on Feb 17th, 2010, 9:52pm:
THE VOLTAGE AT THE ASKED NODE IS --> = Vdd * [C2/(C1+CX+C2)].
AS CHARGE REDISTRIBUTION HAPPENS.
PLEASE NOTE THAT IF C1>>CX (AS MENTIONED IN MY DIAGRAM 2.5pf),
THE EFFECT OF Cx CAN BE NEGLECTED AND ONE CAN GET THE DESIRED VOLTAGE DIVISION.
Not correct.

C1, C2 and Cx share Qx in initial state.
Qx is not charged in only small Cx.
So after restribution of charge, I can't expect Vx correctly.


If feedback networks are composed of only capacitor,
  - It is difficult to fix DC bias points properly.
    It could results in extreme bias points, e.g. all devices are saturated or cut off.
    This is very true for CMOS OP Amp.
  - No feedback effect at DC and low frequency. It could cause unstability.

If feedback networks are composed of only resistor,
  - It could be unstable for high frequency.


SORRY,
I AM WRONG. AS IT IS A FLOATING NODE, THE Qx CHARGE CAN'T BE REMOVED. HENCE THAT POINT CAN'T HAVE DESIRED VOLTAGE DUE TO OPAMP ACTION.
SORRY AGAIN FOR THE WRONG INTERPRETATION.
AGAIN THANKS A LOT !!
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: Why while testing an AMPLIFIER (test chip) in feedback configuration both R-C fe
Reply #16 - Feb 18th, 2010, 4:09am
 
Manas wrote on Feb 18th, 2010, 4:06am:
I AM WRONG. AS IT IS A FLOATING NODE, THE Qx CHARGE CAN'T BE REMOVED.
HENCE THAT POINT CAN'T HAVE DESIRED VOLTAGE DUE TO OPAMP ACTION.
If you would like to insist on feedback networks composed of only capacitor, you should implement some startup circuits, e.g. reset circuit.

But unstability issue never can be resolved even if you implement startup circuit with feedback networks compopsed of only capacitor.
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Manas
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Re: Why while testing an AMPLIFIER (test chip) in feedback configuration both R-C fe
Reply #17 - Feb 18th, 2010, 11:06pm
 


But unstability issue never can be resolved even if you implement
startup circuit with feedback networks compopsed of only capacitor.
[/quote]

Thanks A Lot !!
Can u provide  any example or cases where the above mentioned issue has happened or the designers have faced the problems??
You may point to any reference paper or material..
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: Why while testing an AMPLIFIER (test chip) in feedback configuration both R-C fe
Reply #18 - Feb 19th, 2010, 1:37am
 
Manas wrote on Feb 18th, 2010, 11:06pm:
Can u provide  any example or cases where the above mentioned issue has happened or the designers have faced the problems??
Assume opened input(left terminal of C1) with feedback networks composed of only capacitor C2.

Here there is no feedback effect around DC and low frequency. This is almost open loop high gain OP Amp alone.
So it could cause unstability around low frequency due to contiunous time operation.

On the other hand, capacitor only feedback networks are used in switched capacitor amplifier.
The reason why it could not be unstable is due to its discrete time operation.
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Manas
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Re: Why while testing an AMPLIFIER (test chip) in feedback configuration both R-C fe
Reply #19 - Feb 22nd, 2010, 1:51am
 
This is Just for Completion of the Discussion of the POST. I have attached the desired files
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diagram1.PNG
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Manas
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Re: Why while testing an AMPLIFIER (test chip) in feedback configuration both R-C fe
Reply #20 - Feb 22nd, 2010, 1:52am
 
Manas wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010, 1:51am:
This is Just for Completion of the Discussion of the POST. I have attached the desired files

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diagram2.PNG
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Manas
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Re: Why while testing an AMPLIFIER (test chip) in feedback configuration both R-C fe
Reply #21 - Feb 22nd, 2010, 1:52am
 
Manas wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010, 1:52am:
Manas wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010, 1:51am:
This is Just for Completion of the Discussion of the POST. I have attached the desired files


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diagram3.PNG
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: Why while testing an AMPLIFIER (test chip) in feedback configuration both R-C fe
Reply #22 - Feb 22nd, 2010, 2:03am
 
For only resistor feedback networks, you should consider instability due to load capacitance rather than input capacitance.
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Re: Why while testing an AMPLIFIER (test chip) in feedback configuration both R-C fe
Reply #23 - Feb 22nd, 2010, 2:39am
 
pancho_hideboo wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010, 2:03am:
For only resistor feedback networks, you should consider instability due to load capacitance rather than input capacitance.

Of-Course due to Load Capacitance the Phase of the Stand-Alone OPAMP phase degrades even if there is resistive feed-back or not ( is a lose statement. It may improves the stability).

If I break the loop at the o/p node of the OPAMP and apply a Vtest at the break point  then the Resistors and the i/p cap forms a Low-pass filter and adds a effective pole in the LOOP-gain as the Feed-back ressistors are kept quite high for not reducing (loading) OPMAP o/p resistance.

I wonder how due to the resistive feed-back and  the load capacitance the  pole is added in the Loop-gain. Putting the my doubt i other way--> How resistive feed-back degrades the pole caused by the load Capacitor
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Re: Why while testing an AMPLIFIER (test chip) in feedback configuration both R-C fe
Reply #24 - Feb 22nd, 2010, 2:44am
 
Manas wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010, 2:39am:
Putting the my doubt i other way-->
How resistive feed-back degrades the pole caused by the load Capacitor
Simply consider output resistance of OP Amp.
Then consider resistance only feedback with it and load capacitance.

It could result in positive feedback.
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« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2010, 3:49am by pancho_hideboo »  
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