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question on bandwith design in crystal osc (Read 10477 times)
loose-electron
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Re: question on bandwith design in crystal osc
Reply #15 - Mar 10th, 2010, 4:28pm
 
rf-design wrote on Mar 9th, 2010, 2:34pm:
An RC-oscillator inherit the 50-200ppm/K from the Poly-Res. The clear solution is to adjust the RC every RTC period and second to use the RC also as RTC. Because within the RTC periods the temp drift is very low. The only critical stuff was the initial tune in code and model detail for verification.



Sounds simple!

Now - go do something very quantitative:

1. Find the frequency accuracy needed to hit a tuned circuit (the crystal) with enough accuracy to realize less than 3dB-6dB of passband loss. The Q of your circuit is 0.5 x 10E6. For the sake of argument, lets call it a 10MHz crystal.

I expect you will find an answer that is under 50Hz, and if my memory serves me correctly the answer is around  20Hz.

2. Go model that RC oscillator, put in all the PVT corner variables and determine the frequency variance.

I expect you will find a +/- 40% variance (give or take)

3. Determine how much resolution you are going to need to get an adjust circuit that can be "tuned" within 1/2 of the tuned accuracy stated above. (best guess is 10Hz) - so with an RC oscillator that varies from 14MHz to 6MHz (delta = 8 MHz) your adjust system needs 800,000 adjustment points.

Thats a lot of tuning and adjustment to hit a very narrow frequency window.

Now, after you get that circuit tuned up to hit the right frequency, change something, pretty much anything, but lets say change the temperature, or the power supply voltage.

You just lost your tuning point, and you are outside the frequency window.

Your numbers may vary, but the above is the concept. Problems are seen in simulation, and I have seen this idea in the lab and seen that it has problems there too.

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Jerry Twomey
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Reiner Franke

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Re: question on bandwith design in crystal osc
Reply #16 - Mar 11th, 2010, 1:41am
 
Jerry

it is interesting to meet the same project requirement a second time. As we both know about the difficult, but not unsolveable, specification for the tuned RTC-RC-oscillator regarding voltage sensitivity, temperature sensitivity and resolution I will add three further points.

1. Pressure sensitivity of the poly-poly-cap and pressure sensitivity of the poly-grain-resistance. Pressure comes through bend from board to package frame to die. Touching the package surface lead to the same effect but is more for diagnosis that the effect is in place as predicted.

2. Transient temperature changes in die. Beside that the project was a low power <30mW there where different activities in the die which lead to 2D transient temperature profiles. Floorplanning had to be optimized within this data.

3. <0.5K temperature cycling lead to hysteresis effects. It was expected to be proportional to the temperature cycle but not exactly to characterize.

The key to solve above further design road blocks was digital. The tuning code was made adaptive because if you hit not exactly the resonator simply the power efficiency goes down. There is no hard degradation. Only the RTC-burst protocol have to forsee this tuning result.
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Re: question on bandwith design in crystal osc
Reply #17 - Mar 12th, 2010, 1:14pm
 
there is a much simpler solution and everyone seems to keep ignoring what I said originally -

put a lot of gain after the crystal oscillator so the signal is usable at a small amplitude and does not need to need to go thru the long period of start up amplitude growing.

that works. its simple and works reliably.
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Jerry Twomey
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