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Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed (Read 14618 times)
kanu
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Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Jul 21st, 2010, 11:42am
 
We need to design a comparator which has a switching voltage of 1mV. As of now, the offset required between the two inputs is 4mV. How should I go about reducing this to 1mv? Further, I have a doubt here.. won't the supply noise or process variation affect this offset voltage ?

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Kanu
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AnalogDE
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #1 - Jul 21st, 2010, 4:09pm
 
To get a 4x reduction in the offset voltage you need to scale up your existing circuit by a factor of 16X.  Power will also scale by 16X.  

You can also look up offset cancellation schemes by looking up papers by Razavi.  A good introductory source is his book, "Principles of Data Conversion System Design"
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kanu
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #2 - Jul 21st, 2010, 5:29pm
 
One more question.. I was just wondering will it be good idea to design opamp for this comparator instead of using a comparator circuit ? What I mean to ask is that since both comparator and opamp have input stage of differential amplifier... will I require to scale opamp too by 16X ?
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vp1953
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #3 - Jul 21st, 2010, 7:24pm
 
Hi Kanu,

How did you determine that the offset voltage is 4mV?
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kanu
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #4 - Jul 21st, 2010, 8:45pm
 
I applied voltages of 0.604V and 0.6V to the two inputs of the differential amplifier of the comparator (though I guess.. this is not enough and I will need to run monte carlo simulation to say for sure). What actually I mean is that our project needs higher sensitivity for the comparator, ie, it should be able to detect the difference between the inputs which is as low as 1mV. Do correct me if you think that my methodology is incorrect.

For the comparator circuit, I actually used one of the comparator circuit given in Dr. Baker's book. I modified it to work for 1.2V supply and 90nm. Finally, the circuit consumes power of 320uW (which I may need to reduce further..probably by compromising on current and slew rate)

Further, as mentioned in above post I increased Ws by 4 times of input transistors. It did take switching voltage down to 2mV without considerable increase in power.

Now, as mentioned in the book I was trying to increase the transconductance of the input transistors to see the effect ( I am not sure how is it going to affect the power though).

I will appreciate if I can get any help.
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raja.cedt
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #5 - Jul 21st, 2010, 9:15pm
 
hi,
  its hard to get 1 or 2mv offset with analog techniques..try with digital calibrations.
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kanu
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #6 - Jul 21st, 2010, 9:50pm
 
So, does that mean even opamp isn't good enough ? Is this because of process variation and supply voltage noise ? or its only that 1mV offset is not possible along with low power ? Please suggest something. I think I am lost  :(
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sheldon
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #7 - Jul 22nd, 2010, 5:58am
 
Kanu,

 In general, op amps are not intended to operate "slammed" into the
rail. They often do not recover well from this condition. Next, you
need to be careful, there are two terms to offset: systematic and
random. You seem to saying that the systematic offset is 4mV when
you need a resolution of 1mV. So you have a big problem, you need
to improve the balance in your design so the systematic offset is
much smaller than the required resolution, ~100uV. Then you need to
run Monte Carlo to determine the random offset. As Raja noted, you
probably need to look at circuit techniques to eliminate random offset,
after eliminating the systematic offset. If the process has bipolars
you might want to try them, some nice 1 mil circular emitter might
get you the offset that you need if you can live with the base current
and lower ft.

                                                                  Best Regards,

                                                                     Sheldon
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raja.cedt
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #8 - Jul 22nd, 2010, 6:58am
 
hi, what i mean is in analog compensation you have to put into loop and store some where in a cap and subtract in the next phase. Where as in digital calibration you will blindly pump some programmable current and make both legs of diff pair balanced with this you will get very nice control across Monte Carlo also. I have implemented this in one my work. if you want to see basic implementation refer the following pap (i have written this)

High Speed Clock and Data Recovery Circuit with Novel Jitter Reduction Technique

Thanks,
rajasekhar.
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vp1953
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #9 - Jul 22nd, 2010, 11:16am
 
Hi Kanu,

Process gradients to contribute to random offset, can be minimized with proper layout (check Razavi, CMOS Analog Design, Last chapter I think).

Check out "correlated double sampling" for minimizing 1/f noise, offsets

many CMOS process provide low ft npn's and maybe that is option for the input stage

lastly if your output is not being railed, and if the frequency of your signal is large (say several 100k Hz), you might still get away with a large offset voltage with proper filtering etc. The offset voltage varies slowly
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kanu
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #10 - Jul 22nd, 2010, 11:53am
 
I see.. I get the problem. I did some reading on systematic and random offsets. I will try to reduce systematic offset.

Raja, I will appreciate if you can send me your paper. I tried to access through our online library but could not get it.

Thanks all for help.
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raja.cedt
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #11 - Jul 22nd, 2010, 9:22pm
 
please send your mail id..
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Lex
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #12 - Jul 23rd, 2010, 12:18am
 
May I ask why analog techniques are not good enough to get to 1mV offset?

It is true that you have to think of influence of charge injection/CLK feedthrough of the switches that are connected to a sampling capacitor. However, these are not random offsets any more, right?
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raja.cedt
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #13 - Jul 23rd, 2010, 12:38am
 
hi alexander..what i mean to say is across corner your switch resistance may change or switch vds may change or while connecting from sample mode to hold mode also some leakage may happen and remember all this things will come into picture once you targeted for tiny offsets like 1mv,.5mv....

Thanks,
Rajasekhar.
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HdrChopper
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Re: Minimize offset voltage at inputs of comparator.. help needed
Reply #14 - Jul 23rd, 2010, 7:24pm
 
IF chopping is used instead of CDS or AZ residual offsets as low as 20uv can be achieved. This is way smaller than 1mv.
Commercial autozero opamps (which are chopper stabilized and not autozero really) have actually those input referred offset.
So 1mv is can be way reduced with analog techniques like chopper stabilization.

Best
Tosei
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