The Designer's Guide Community
Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register. Please follow the Forum guidelines.
Aug 2nd, 2024, 5:17am
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
What is the phase margin needed for DSM? (Read 4640 times)
moore
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 10

What is the phase margin needed for DSM?
Sep 06th, 2010, 4:58am
 
I know for close loop OPAMP or PLL, we always need 60 degree for stability and settling time performance.
But I have in many paper, the phase margin of DSM loop filter is only 20 degree, or even worse!
Should we watch the phase margin for DSM's stability criteria, or just looking the root locus will be enough to assure enough stability?
Many Thanks!
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Mayank
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 334

Re: What is the phase margin needed for DSM?
Reply #1 - Sep 20th, 2010, 2:39am
 
Quote:
I know for close loop OPAMP or PLL, we always need 60 degree for stability and settling time performance.

PM needed for stability of continuous-time ckts is not necessarily 60 degrees. It just depends on how much ringing in the response you can tolerate.

Quote:
But I have in many paper, the phase margin of DSM loop filter is only 20 degree, or even worse!
Can you please name the paper which presents this ?  
Z-domain analysis is needed for discrete time systems. But stability criterion is by far similar,if not same.
Lesser the phase margin, higher the ringing in the response.
Even if you approximate it as a continuous-time system, actual phase margin of the ckt is lesser than what you calculate with CT approximation.

--
Mayank.
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
raja.cedt
Senior Fellow
******
Offline



Posts: 1516
Germany
Re: What is the phase margin needed for DSM?
Reply #2 - Sep 22nd, 2010, 8:28am
 
hi moore,
as mayank said ringing is the main concern rather than PM, in continuous time domain even 45 aslo acceptable in many cases (it all depends on settling time and acceptable ringing). But Phase Margin is less prefered parameter in z domain, main concern is wether your poles are in sides or not. If you want to approximate discreate domain with continuos domain (like plls and over sample data converters) phase margin has to be grater than 60, because sampled system has inherent delay which was not considered.

Thanks,
Rajasekhar.
Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW raja.sekhar86   IP Logged
love_analog
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 101

Re: What is the phase margin needed for DSM?
Reply #3 - Oct 11th, 2010, 6:28am
 
If you want to approximate discreate domain with continuos domain (like plls and over sample data converters) phase margin has to be grater than 60, because sampled system has inherent delay which was not considered.

I do not agree with this statement. You can approximate discrete with continuous if the sampling rate is high enough. In PLL, rule of thumb is the reference frequency is ~10x of the PLL BW. Nothing to do with Phase margin
Back to top
 
 

loveanalog.blogspot.com
The Power of Analog
View Profile   IP Logged
sync.guo
New Member
*
Offline



Posts: 1
China
Re: What is the phase margin needed for DSM?
Reply #4 - Oct 12th, 2010, 7:22pm
 
Quote:
But Phase Margin is less prefered parameter in z domain, main concern is wether your poles are in sides or not

The criterion is whether the poles are inside or outside the unit circle, this is both we know.
But I don't think you fully answer the question,
it can be changed like this,
how many margins should we save between the z domain pole and unit circle ?

Quote:
I do not agree with this statement. You can approximate discrete with continuous if the sampling rate is high enough

They are two different things, I mean, stability and discrete-continuous approximation.
For the stability criterion, it's not a "approximation" but just a "transformation" from z to laplace
Back to top
 
 
View Profile sync.guo   IP Logged
HdrChopper
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 493

Re: What is the phase margin needed for DSM?
Reply #5 - Oct 20th, 2010, 4:11pm
 
In addition DT to CT conversion is not direct in a SDM...for the models to be equivalent, the DT equivalent will need a pre=conditioning filter that makes both impulse responses exactly the same.
It is true that delay might compromise stability, specially when considering such delay is signal dependent, as it happens in a real comparator (1-bit quantizer).
Bottom line: delay is an important parameter to consider when it comes to stability in CT SDM

Tosei
Back to top
 
 

Keep it simple
View Profile   IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Copyright 2002-2024 Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. Designer’s Guide® is a registered trademark of Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. All rights reserved. Send comments or questions to editor@designers-guide.org. Consider submitting a paper or model.