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Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip
Oct 11^th, 2011, 4:17am

As computer chip I am refering to a Northbridge or Southbridge or the CPU itself. For what purpose you ask ? Well to see if there is a hidden RF Transceiver or Receiver built into these chips where they should not be. We are searching for a reverse engineering firm or lab or individual that can tell us whether the chips that we have on a few of our systems contain command and control override routines. We believe our systems have been tampered with and would appreciate the help of the experts of this forum in locating someone or company that can tell us if there is a hidden RF element to our standard typical motherboard chipsets found on most motherboard of old and new. We essentially need proof that the chips have been replaced with fake/RF chips that allows someone remotely to take over the control of the computer essentially.

I have read the name chipworks somewhere on this forum but are there other companies or individuals that might be able to assist us also ? I've included a couple of links that explains that these chips do exist and from where some of them come from.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=114722
http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2011/01/concern-over-chinese-computer-chips

Best Regards

Victor

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vivkr

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Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip
Reply #1 - Oct 12^th, 2011, 4:30am

well! don't know who could do such reverse engineering for you but your fears may be unfounded. If the chip really were to contain a radio transceiver, then it would require relatively large antennas on it, since you cannot broadcast any significant distance if you are above a few 100 MHz.

Such antennas would be quite visible, even without a microscope. So, radio-based sabotage systems would be more in the domain of spy thrillers rather than reality.

I could on the other hand imagine sabotage techniques which rely on transmission of data to and from the saboteur over the internet via wireline means, such as your modem/cable connection. In such cases, the sabotage does not need to be at the hardware level. It could simply be in the software.

Vivek

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carlgrace

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Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip
Reply #2 - Oct 13^th, 2011, 9:52am

Chipworks are the guys you want if you really need to reverse engineer something, but I don't think you need to do that.

If you really feel there is an RF transmitter in a chip, just de-cap it and look for inductors. They are octagonal or circular structures that are much larger than the other structures on the chip. You should be able to see them with the naked eye or a weak microscope.

It is possible the chips have LC VCOs on-chip using inductors, but I don't think that's likely, I suspect they use ring oscillators... not my area of expertise, tbh, so if you find inductors you should ask around about how the chips do their clocking to see.

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loose-electron Senior Fellow Offline Best Design Tool = Capable Designers Posts: 1638 San Diego California	Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip Reply #3 - Oct 13^th, 2011, 1:18pm Victor - Where you at? I can either help or find you somebody to help jerry
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Victor6799

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Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip
Reply #4 - Oct 14^th, 2011, 10:01am

carlgrace wrote on Oct 13^th, 2011, 9:52am:

Chipworks are the guys you want if you really need to reverse engineer something, but I don't think you need to do that.

If you really feel there is an RF transmitter in a chip, just de-cap it and look for inductors. �They are octagonal or circular structures that are much larger than the other structures on the chip. �You should be able to see them with the naked eye or a weak microscope.

It is possible the chips have LC VCOs on-chip using inductors, but I don't think that's likely, I suspect they use ring oscillators... not my area of expertise, tbh, so if you find inductors you should ask around about how the chips do their clocking to see.

Thanks a lot for the reply. If you can give me a link on how to go about doing what you ask I would appreciate it. I am not sure on how to crack open the chip without damaging the internal components. If you can post the link or instructions that would be great. I would be happy to provide my email address here as long as its not against forum rules. Also I am willing to forgo any value this old board has and would like to test both the Southbridge and the Northbridge chips. If they don't conclude anything I would like to do the same with the CPU that's on the board. Following which I will likely give up this theory of mine.

Victor

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Victor6799 New Member Offline Posts: 9	Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip Reply #5 - Oct 14^th, 2011, 10:02am loose-electron wrote on Oct 13^th, 2011, 1:18pm: Victor - Where you at? I can either help or find you somebody to help jerry Thank you for the reply. I am located in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. K2J3A7. I would post my phone number but I am not sure about forum rules. Victor
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carlgrace

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Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip
Reply #6 - Oct 14^th, 2011, 1:24pm

Victor6799 wrote on Oct 14^th, 2011, 10:01am:

Thanks a lot for the reply. If you can give me a link on how to go about doing what you ask I would appreciate it. I am not sure on how to crack open the chip without damaging the internal components. If you can post the link or instructions that would be great. I would be happy to provide my email address here as long as its not against forum rules. Also I am willing to forgo any value this old board has and would like to test both the Southbridge and the Northbridge chips. If they don't conclude anything I would like to do the same with the CPU that's on the board. Following which I will likely give up this theory of mine.

Victor

Decapsulation of a packaged IC is not a do-it-yourself type of activity. �It involves both mechanical and chemical etching processes. �It turns out the company I have used in the past for failure analysis is out of business but these guys can do it:

http://chiptargets.com/decapsulation/

When I did it in the past it cost about 100 bucks. �I have no idea what chiptargets would charge.

After you get it decapped, you can look for inductors under the microscope.

Good luck,
Carl

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Victor6799

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Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip
Reply #7 - Oct 15^th, 2011, 5:01pm

carlgrace wrote on Oct 14^th, 2011, 1:24pm:

Victor6799 wrote on Oct 14^th, 2011, 10:01am:

Thanks a lot for the reply. If you can give me a link on how to go about doing what you ask I would appreciate it. I am not sure on how to crack open the chip without damaging the internal components. If you can post the link or instructions that would be great. I would be happy to provide my email address here as long as its not against forum rules. Also I am willing to forgo any value this old board has and would like to test both the Southbridge and the Northbridge chips. If they don't conclude anything I would like to do the same with the CPU that's on the board. Following which I will likely give up this theory of mine.

Victor

Decapsulation of a packaged IC is not a do-it-yourself type of activity. �It involves both mechanical and chemical etching processes. �It turns out the company I have used in the past for failure analysis is out of business but these guys can do it:

http://chiptargets.com/decapsulation/

When I did it in the past it cost about 100 bucks. �I have no idea what chiptargets would charge.

After you get it decapped, you can look for inductors under the microscope.

Good luck,
Carl

Thanks Carl for the information. I wanted to ask one last question about this topic. Lets say we can get the chip(s) decapitated but is there a possibility that the motherboard chip(s) may contain layers of transistors and that the actual RF component that you have described requires multi layers to be decapitated in order to identify it ? Could it be that RF components would more then likely be located near the top of the chip for better range and better overall functioning or am I totally mistaken ?

Thanks a lot for the help.

Victor

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carlgrace

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Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip
Reply #8 - Oct 16^th, 2011, 7:52pm

Victor6799 wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011, 5:01pm:

Thanks Carl for the information. I wanted to ask one last question about this topic. Lets say we can get the chip(s) decapitated but is there a possibility that the motherboard chip(s) may contain layers of transistors and that the actual RF component that you have described requires multi layers to be decapitated in order to identify it ? Could it be that RF components would more then likely be located near the top of the chip for better range and better overall functioning or am I totally mistaken ?

Thanks a lot for the help.

Victor

Integrated inductors in IC processes use special thick metal layers which have to be at the very top of the layer stack for various reasons. �So, if the chip in question has inductors in it, they will be at the very top, under the passivation overglass. �There is no chance they will be at the bottom of the chip. �Therefore, if they are there, you will see them if you just removed the top of the package.

Best,
Carl

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rfcooltools.com

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Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip
Reply #9 - Oct 16^th, 2011, 9:41pm

Victor6799,

Have you exhausted all possibilities like the obvious ones. �
Internet connection, spyware software or some kind of hardware malfunction?
If these chips have a built in receiver/transmitter the transmitter would have to be very close possibly only feet away. �The digital switching at the memory controllers is an unwelcome environment for any type of robust communication via an antenna especially an un-optimal one that might be in an IC package. �
Ask yourself this question?
What is so important about what you are doing that would warrant such a clandestine action by someone else? �

I would guess that unless you are in the state department or using some top-secret defense department computer you probably are not being attacked through a radio remote interface. �Then again you would not be posting your question on a public forum if you where. �I am not trying to be rude but you may be avoiding some other more common hacking techniques. �

http://rfcooltools.com

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loose-electron

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Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip
Reply #10 - Oct 21^st, 2011, 5:48am

victor:

the suggestions about inductors is a good one.

however i do agree with the comments here about there being other paths to take for security before
you even consider this one.

I am guessing that you may not be an EE, and you may want to get someone involved that understands communication systems and circuit a bit better, to see if this is even an issue needing to be considered.

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oermens Community Member Offline Posts: 86	Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip Reply #11 - Oct 28^th, 2011, 5:33pm Have you talked to UBM TechInsights in Ottawa? They do teardowns, not sure about reverse engineering.
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Victor6799

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Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip
Reply #12 - Oct 29^th, 2011, 2:42am

carlgrace wrote on Oct 16^th, 2011, 7:52pm:

Victor6799 wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011, 5:01pm:

Thanks Carl for the information. I wanted to ask one last question about this topic. Lets say we can get the chip(s) decapitated but is there a possibility that the motherboard chip(s) may contain layers of transistors and that the actual RF component that you have described requires multi layers to be decapitated in order to identify it ? Could it be that RF components would more then likely be located near the top of the chip for better range and better overall functioning or am I totally mistaken ?

Thanks a lot for the help.

Victor

Integrated inductors in IC processes use special thick metal layers which have to be at the very top of the layer stack for various reasons. �So, if the chip in question has inductors in it, they will be at the very top, under the passivation overglass. �There is no chance they will be at the bottom of the chip. �Therefore, if they are there, you will see them if you just removed the top of the package.

Best,
Carl

Thanks Carl. You guys ROCK on this forum. Really appreciate the reply. Victor.

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Victor6799

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Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip
Reply #13 - Oct 29^th, 2011, 2:46am

loose-electron wrote on Oct 21^st, 2011, 5:48am:

victor:

the suggestions about inductors is a good one.

however i do agree with the comments here about there being other paths to take for security before
you even consider this one.

I am guessing that you may not be an EE, and you may want to get someone involved that understands communication systems and circuit a bit better, to see if this is even an issue needing to be considered.

Hello...and thank you for the reply. Yes your absolutely correct I am not a EE but learning a lot from you guys and this forum. Your absolutely are right and I will definitely consider all other options. BTW reverse engineering is way to expensive to just to find out if the chip contains a transeiver....Thanks for the comments.

Victor

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Victor6799 New Member Offline Posts: 9	Re: Reverse Engineering a Computer Chip Reply #14 - Oct 29^th, 2011, 2:47am oermens wrote on Oct 28^th, 2011, 5:33pm: Have you talked to UBM TechInsights in Ottawa? They do teardowns, not sure about reverse engineering. Thanks again you guys really ROCK on this forum. Victor.
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