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How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA (Read 28491 times)
Ashutosh_rane
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How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Oct 15th, 2011, 5:08am
 
hello friends
i have designed the folded cascode opamp having gain of 50 dB, UGB~150MHz... but phase margine is very low ~25 degree's only.. so can anybody tell me....
##-> how to improve the  PM of folded cascode Opamp (*without adding compensation capacitor) ....??
##->how to make the second pole frequency greater than UGB for folded cascode amplifier(*for stability).....??
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raja.cedt
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #1 - Oct 15th, 2011, 6:18am
 
hello,
without adding compensation cap, it is very difficult to compensate unless you are ready to compromise some thing, for example your second pole is at drain of the Q5, so there try to reduce the cap otherwise try to increase the cap. By the way whats the load cap, try to increase that it will be compensated. Whats the CMFB architecture?

Thanks,
raj.
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Ashutosh_rane
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #2 - Oct 15th, 2011, 6:35am
 
thank u raja...
i have designed SC cmfb and continuous cmfb too but both are not working properly so finding more material ......rather i will put my problems regarding that in next post...

but now for this post i am using no load
capacitance
till with load capacitance of 1 uf UGB lowered to 30 mhz.
Do the output biasing current(I5) affects the PM?? (*as per "procedure for fullydiff. folded cascode" paper) it says PM gm5=UGB*CL*tan(PM) and gm of output transistor depend upon current and the size....of Q5.
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raja.cedt
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #3 - Oct 15th, 2011, 6:51am
 
hello,

1. with 1uf load cap you are getting 30Mhz ugb? is it correct because to get this result you need gm of 4.5 for input pair.

2. But the formula what you are referring is under the assumption of dominate pole at the o/p and non dominate pole at drain of Q5 and in the formula you have keep capacitance of Q5 drain node cap rather than load cap.

3. How you are simulating PM, like in the open loop or closed loop? better use in fb, so that your bias point will be same.

Thanks,
raj.
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Ashutosh_rane
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #4 - Oct 15th, 2011, 7:38am
 
hello raja
thanks for your reply...
i have uploaded the circuit ....just for reference.... that is not my circuit... i will upload my circuit and its responce

in my actual circuit i am not getting the gain and bandwidth  as it is calculated theoretically...its with huge difference i will give my calculations and screen shots by tomarrow bcoz now i cant access lab....!
i am using 1.8um cmos umc technology...
BSIM3v3 model
simulator spectre...
so can u tell me
why this discrepancy comes with theory and simulated results......??


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raja.cedt
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #5 - Oct 15th, 2011, 8:25am
 
hello,
any one can't tell with out schematic and operating point. please post schematic and response.

Thanks,
raj.
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rfidea
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #6 - Oct 15th, 2011, 9:41am
 
Are you saying that you have a load of 1uF = 1e-6F and a UGB=30mHz=0.03Hz? Without looking at the schematics and knowing how much current you are using maybe this is correct. Your load of 1uF is very large.
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Ashutosh_rane
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #7 - Oct 15th, 2011, 10:22am
 
sorry....its 1pf
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rfidea
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #8 - Oct 15th, 2011, 12:57pm
 
Ok, that sounds more resonable. But then you should not get ugb=0.03Hz if everything is ok. It must be something really bad. I would start to look at the DC voltage in every node to see that the opamp is properly biased. I would also check the current level in each branch so that is ok as well.
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Larry_80
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #9 - Oct 15th, 2011, 10:40pm
 
If you don't want to use any compensation capacitor, you can try to trade your UGBW for phase margin if you have the liberty of doing that. If not, i cannot think of any other way to improve your ckt stability.
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Ashutosh_rane
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #10 - Oct 16th, 2011, 2:39am
 
hello Larry,
if i dont use compensation capacitor hoe can i make use sacrifice of bandwidth i mean what changes i have to make so that bandwidth will reduce and PM will increase.Larry_80 wrote on Oct 15th, 2011, 10:40pm:
If you don't want to use any compensation capacitor, you can try to trade your UGBW for phase margin if you have the liberty of doing that. If not, i cannot think of any other way to improve your ckt stability.

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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #11 - Oct 16th, 2011, 12:38pm
 
UGBW= Adc*Wp   where Adc is DC gain and Wp is dominant pole
Adc=gm2*Rout
Wp=1/(Rout*CL)
=> UGBW=gm2/CL; so u can see to reduce UGBW you can just reduce the transconductance of your input differential pair.
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« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2011, 1:41pm by Larry_80 »  
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Ashutosh_rane
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #12 - Oct 17th, 2011, 2:03am
 
i am attaching my circuit please suggest me if any changes.....the
graph 1 is without load capacitance and
graph 2 is with load capacitance (1pf)
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Ashutosh_rane
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #13 - Oct 17th, 2011, 2:05am
 
graph 1
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Ashutosh_rane
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Re: How to improve phase margine for conventional folded cascode OTA
Reply #14 - Oct 17th, 2011, 2:09am
 
graph 2
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