The Designer's Guide Community
Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register. Please follow the Forum guidelines.
Jul 17th, 2024, 7:27am
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise (Read 8009 times)
Hannibal
New Member
*
Offline



Posts: 4

injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise
Feb 15th, 2012, 3:02am
 
Hi,

I'm trying to simulate phase noise of an injection locked oscillator in Cadence with PSS and PNOISE. The problem is when i use a periodic source for injection, PSS simulation fail and an error occurs : " 'V0' is a periodic input signal, which is inconsistent with autonomous circuits. "

So my question is:  How do we simulate the injection locked oscillator phase noise ?

Is there a way to conceal the periodic voltage source in the circuit so as not to piss the pss off ?


thanks,

Hannibal
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
raja.cedt
Senior Fellow
******
Offline



Posts: 1516
Germany
Re: injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise
Reply #1 - Feb 15th, 2012, 3:53am
 
hello..why you need periodic source in the ckt for injunction locking..is it for initial condition forcing?

Thanks,
Raj.
Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW raja.sekhar86   IP Logged
Hannibal
New Member
*
Offline



Posts: 4

Re: injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise
Reply #2 - Feb 15th, 2012, 4:37am
 
The periodic source is for injection, it must be a source for the injection signal. The problem is when we select "Oscillator" field in PSS simulation and it fails because of that (on the one hand there is a periodic source, on the other hand there is an autonomous circuit because "Oscillator" field in PSS is selected)
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Frank Wiedmann
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 678
Munich, Germany
Re: injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise
Reply #3 - Feb 15th, 2012, 4:58am
 
The solution is simple: don't select the "Oscillator" field. This is really only for autonomous circuits like free-running oscillators. An injection-locked oscillator is not an autonomous circuit.
Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW   IP Logged
Hannibal
New Member
*
Offline



Posts: 4

Re: injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise
Reply #4 - Feb 15th, 2012, 5:37am
 
@Frank Wiedmann

Ok I agree with you but how we can take into account the nonlinearity of oscillator in phase noise calculation !! based on your post, I will have only the injection signal in PSS simulation !! I'm wondering if with this configuration, PSS will consider that there is an oscillator in the circuit and thus its nonlinearities ?
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Frank Wiedmann
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 678
Munich, Germany
Re: injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise
Reply #5 - Feb 15th, 2012, 6:00am
 
Hannibal wrote on Feb 15th, 2012, 5:37am:
based on your post, I will have only the injection signal in PSS simulation !!

Sorry, I don't understand your problem. The output of your oscillator, which you want to examine, is not identical to the injection signal, is it?
Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW   IP Logged
Hannibal
New Member
*
Offline



Posts: 4

Re: injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise
Reply #6 - Feb 15th, 2012, 10:52am
 
Frank Wiedmann wrote on Feb 15th, 2012, 6:00am:
Hannibal wrote on Feb 15th, 2012, 5:37am:
based on your post, I will have only the injection signal in PSS simulation !!

Sorry, I don't understand your problem. The output of your oscillator, which you want to examine, is not identical to the injection signal, is it?



That's it !! I tried your configurantion (PSS with only the injection signal) but currently I have convergence problem !!

Does anyone know the difference between shooting method and harmonic balance in PSS simulation ? Is that the shooting method is more accurate than harmonic balance ?

Thanks,

Hannibal
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
raja.cedt
Senior Fellow
******
Offline



Posts: 1516
Germany
Re: injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise
Reply #7 - Feb 15th, 2012, 12:40pm
 
hello frank,
how an injunction lock osc is an non-autonomous ckt? i would say it is a four stage oscillator, and each stage is a tuned amplifier...
Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW raja.sekhar86   IP Logged
Frank Wiedmann
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 678
Munich, Germany
Re: injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise
Reply #8 - Feb 16th, 2012, 1:13am
 
raja.cedt wrote on Feb 15th, 2012, 12:40pm:
hello frank,
how an injunction lock osc is an non-autonomous ckt? i would say it is a four stage oscillator, and each stage is a tuned amplifier...

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_circuit), an autonomous circuit is a circuit that produces a time-varying output without having a time-varying input. An injection-locked oscillator (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injection_locking) does have a time-varying input, so it is not autonomous. This has absolutely nothing to do with the internal structure of the circuit.

Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW   IP Logged
Frank Wiedmann
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 678
Munich, Germany
Re: injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise
Reply #9 - Feb 16th, 2012, 1:35am
 
Hannibal wrote on Feb 15th, 2012, 10:52am:
Does anyone know the difference between shooting method and harmonic balance in PSS simulation ? Is that the shooting method is more accurate than harmonic balance ?

See http://www.cadence.com/Community/blogs/rf/archive/2008/09/03/tip-of-the-week-whe.... For your convergence problems, see http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242240848/2#2.
Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW   IP Logged
rf-design
Senior Member
****
Offline

Reiner Franke

Posts: 165
Germany
Re: injection locked oscillator phase noise simulation using pss+pnoise
Reply #10 - Feb 23rd, 2012, 4:28am
 
I do not know exactly how cadence implemented the shooting convergence checks but I have read in the past some source code comments of Spice3 derivates with shooting implementations.

The method for non-autonomous circuits is that beginning with the starting time for the convergence check all typical non-equidistant time steps are stored. And for the next cycle of the smallest dominator frequency these time steps are recycled. If the recycled time steps lead to violation of the integration time convergence check, the shooting period starting is delayed further. If this period recycling time steps works then all vectors at all time steps are checked for convergence.

For the practical injection locked oscillator the situation could be either that the oscillator is locked after some time or not. If it does not lock because typical the injection amplitude is too low than there could be no closed period orbit in the space defined by the voltages and currents of the network.

What I have taken with me in my memory from the shooting implemenation is that there are so many parameters to tune the shooting convergence that is very difficult w/o a big number of test cases to have a robust implementation. On the other side the developers did had the strength to open access to all these numbers to the command line and provide help to the circuit designers with some kind of autotuners. That is a common practice for matrix runtime tuning to machines memory architecture today.
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Copyright 2002-2024 Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. Designer’s Guide® is a registered trademark of Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. All rights reserved. Send comments or questions to editor@designers-guide.org. Consider submitting a paper or model.