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phase plot of an amplifier (Read 13712 times)
Ken Kundert
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Re: phase plot of an amplifier
Reply #15 - Nov 24th, 2013, 12:18am
 
nrk1,
    You've got it wrong. The issue is not the inductor is not large enough to break the loop. The issue is that it modifies the loop. As such, the loop gain you measure is not the actual loop gain of your circuit. The difference between the measured and actual loop gain is small at log frequencies, and so generally looks reasonable, but is often quite substantial at high frequencies. The error is quite substantial at the frequencies where you would measure phase and gain margin.

-Ken
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: phase plot of an amplifier
Reply #16 - Nov 25th, 2013, 12:52am
 
aaron_do wrote on Nov 21st, 2013, 9:42pm:
Another thing is 0 Hz implies DC or never changing (ever). In this case, phase has no meaning. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

At 0 Hz, the phase can be either 0 degrees (for a positive value) or 180 degrees (for a negative value).
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: phase plot of an amplifier
Reply #17 - Nov 25th, 2013, 12:55am
 
Ken Kundert wrote on Nov 21st, 2013, 2:14pm:
If you are using Spectre, learn to use the stb analysis. If using some other simulator, read http://www.kenkundert.com/docs/cd2001-01.pdf and implement it in your simulator.

You can also take a look at my implementation at https://sites.google.com/site/frankwiedmann/loopgain.
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aaron_do
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Re: phase plot of an amplifier
Reply #18 - Nov 25th, 2013, 4:20am
 
Quote:
Quote:
Another thing is 0 Hz implies DC or never changing (ever). In this case, phase has no meaning. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

At 0 Hz, the phase can be either 0 degrees (for a positive value) or 180 degrees (for a negative value).


saying a signal that never changes in time has a phase is debatable...anyway you've been doing this longer than me and you have a nice website...so I'll just concede the point  :P
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nrk1
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Re: phase plot of an amplifier
Reply #19 - Nov 25th, 2013, 4:58am
 
Yes, I agree that breaking the loop modifies the circuit. In this case, if Cin of the opamp is comparable to the load(5pF), it'll surely modify it. Also, in this particular case, the unity gain frequency is about 10MHz.

In any case, the original question was about the low frequency behavior of loop gain(the phase not being 180 degrees from the inverting input to the ouptut). With the LC circuit used to break the loop, about the only impedance seen at low frequencies (~ 1Hz) is the inductor. the 100F capacitor is practically a short, other capacitors are open circuits, and the internal output resistance of the cascode opamp is also too high to matter. So what is left is just a gm loaded by an inductor, giving 90 degree phase lead.

Ken Kundert wrote on Nov 24th, 2013, 12:18am:
nrk1,
    You've got it wrong. The issue is not the inductor is not large enough to break the loop. The issue is that it modifies the loop. As such, the loop gain you measure is not the actual loop gain of your circuit. The difference between the measured and actual loop gain is small at log frequencies, and so generally looks reasonable, but is often quite substantial at high frequencies. The error is quite substantial at the frequencies where you would measure phase and gain margin.

-Ken

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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: phase plot of an amplifier
Reply #20 - Nov 26th, 2013, 12:40am
 
aaron_do wrote on Nov 25th, 2013, 4:20am:
Quote:
Quote:
Another thing is 0 Hz implies DC or never changing (ever). In this case, phase has no meaning. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

At 0 Hz, the phase can be either 0 degrees (for a positive value) or 180 degrees (for a negative value).

saying a signal that never changes in time has a phase is debatable...anyway you've been doing this longer than me and you have a nice website...so I'll just concede the point  :P

Philosophical discussions aside, this is the generally used notation (for example in S-parameter files).
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