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TurboV

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DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Jun 01^st, 2015, 10:31pm

Edited:

Hello. I'm not an electrical engineer nor do I have any RF background. Can anyone with RF background and experience with DE capsulation tell me once a decap is done on an IC (chip) is it possible to determine if the octagonal shaped structures represent a transmitter or a transceiver device ? This is under the assumption that the engineer examining the top layer of the die where the RF structures/design are located does not know anything about origins of the IC and from which system is it from ?

Lastly is it possible to perform a decap on a IC (plastic molded packages ) using a kitchen micro wave appliance ?

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loose-electron Senior Fellow Offline Best Design Tool = Capable Designers Posts: 1638 San Diego California	Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer Reply #1 - Jun 2^nd, 2015, 11:43am nitric acid is used to decap plastic packaged parts. there are companies that do reverse engineering of devices.
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TurboV

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Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Reply #2 - Jun 2^nd, 2015, 4:17pm

loose-electron wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2015, 11:43am:

nitric acid is used to decap plastic packaged parts.

there are companies that do reverse engineering of devices.

Thank you for the reply. Would you know whether it is possible to perform a de cap using a kitchen household appliance on a IC which packaged using a plastic material ?

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loose-electron

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Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Reply #3 - Jun 5^th, 2015, 11:22am

TurboV wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2015, 4:17pm:

loose-electron wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2015, 11:43am:

nitric acid is used to decap plastic packaged parts.

there are companies that do reverse engineering of devices.

Thank you for the reply. Would you know whether it is possible to perform a de cap using a kitchen household appliance on a IC which packaged using a plastic material ?

kitchen household appliance? Probably not. The nitric acid method is most commonly used.

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Jerry Twomey
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Contract IC-PCB-System Design - Analog, Mixed Signal, RF & Medical

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wave Senior Member Offline Posts: 117 Silicon Valley	Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer Reply #4 - Jun 5^th, 2015, 2:06pm Scarily enough there is a DIY way. http://www.t4f.org/articles/ultra-low-cost-ic-decapsulation/ Still, I think I'd rather go down the street and pay a Pro $50 do it. Wave
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TurboV

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Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Reply #5 - Jun 6^th, 2015, 5:59pm

wave wrote on Jun 5^th, 2015, 2:06pm:

Scarily enough there is a DIY way.
http://www.t4f.org/articles/ultra-low-cost-ic-decapsulation/

Still, I think I'd rather go down the street and pay a Pro $50 do it.

Wave

Hello and thanks for the post. But can anyone else answer that once an IC has been de-capped and the top most layer examined under a microscope one can say the IC has a transceiver circuit design ? Another words the IC is capable of wireless communication.

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aaron_do Senior Fellow Offline Posts: 1398	Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer Reply #6 - Jun 7^th, 2015, 6:40pm If you see a lot of spirals, then there's a good chance.
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loose-electron

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Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Reply #7 - Jun 9^th, 2015, 1:37pm

Acid decap:

https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/7/a/6/9/c/51c0d009ce395feb33000000.jpg

mostly Logic and some analog:

http://i.stack.imgur.com/whWVa.jpg

All logic and memory banks

http://www.break-ic.com/microprocessor-read/images/atmega88c_sm.jpg

Mixed Signal ADC and DAC:

http://s.zeptobars.ru/MC33152-HD.jpg

Looking for a good example of an RF chip (with the usual inductors in the LNA, Mixer etc)

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Jerry Twomey
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wave

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Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Reply #8 - Jun 9^th, 2015, 5:27pm

TurboV wrote on Jun 6^th, 2015, 5:59pm:

Hello and thanks for the post. But can anyone else answer that once an IC has been de-capped and the top most layer examined under a microscope one can say the IC has a transceiver circuit design ? Another words the IC is capable of wireless communication.

I guess my thoughts and question is - what is the motivation of this question? �
Is this a (crazy?) conspiracy theory that someone is spying on you? �

Most systems have wired transceivers for USB, etc. �
RF/Wireless transceivers are possible but not particularly practical unless the larger box is designed for such. �
Any antenna in a chip would be very high frequency and/or lossy, so short range communications only. �
For longer distance communication you'd need a Power Amp and good antenna someplace. �Those are very difficult to hide as auxiliary circuits in a system IC.

Huh

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TurboV Junior Member Offline Posts: 15	Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer Reply #9 - Jul 1^st, 2015, 11:49pm aaron_do wrote on Jun 7^th, 2015, 6:40pm: If you see a lot of spirals, then there's a good chance. do you mean inductors ?
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TurboV

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Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Reply #10 - Jul 1^st, 2015, 11:49pm

wave wrote on Jun 9^th, 2015, 5:27pm:

TurboV wrote on Jun 6^th, 2015, 5:59pm:

Hello and thanks for the post. But can anyone else answer that once an IC has been de-capped and the top most layer examined under a microscope one can say the IC has a transceiver circuit design ? Another words the IC is capable of wireless communication.

I guess my thoughts and question is - what is the motivation of this question? �
Is this a (crazy?) conspiracy theory that someone is spying on you? �

Most systems have wired transceivers for USB, etc. �
RF/Wireless transceivers are possible but not particularly practical unless the larger box is designed for such. �
Any antenna in a chip would be very high frequency and/or lossy, so short range communications only. �
For longer distance communication you'd need a Power Amp and good antenna someplace. �Those are very difficult to hide as auxiliary circuits in a system IC.

Huh

Ah no that was the reason behind the post but thanks for the follow up

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TurboV

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Re: DE capsulation and RF Design Located Top Layer
Reply #11 - Jul 1^st, 2015, 11:52pm

loose-electron wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2015, 11:43am:

nitric acid is used to decap plastic packaged parts.

there are companies that do reverse engineering of devices.

Would you know of any companies which are familiar with either one of the following:

1. Qualcomm Snapdragon IC design
2. Chinese "backdoor" RF IC

Would you recommend a company(s) which are experienced in reversing ? I already have Chipworks on this list. Would you know of any others ?

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