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UGB, Phase margin, Gain margin (Read 109 times)
ram
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UGB, Phase margin, Gain margin
Nov 04th, 2003, 10:40pm
 
Hi,


I am charecterizing an opamp, which will be used in a configuration where in a cap will be connected across the feedback resistor. And op-amp is used  in non-inverting configaration.

For charecterization purpose whether we need only opamp to be in open loop configuaration and see its UGB, phase margin and gain margin or we should look for these values in AB waveform (=openloop*feed-backfactor) by breaking the loop at the feed-back point.

Regards
ram

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Ken Kundert
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Re: UGB, Phase margin, Gain margin
Reply #1 - Nov 5th, 2003, 2:38pm
 
Ram,
What ever you do, you must account for the load effect of the feedback network. It is generally easiest to do if you extract the UGB, gain margin, and phase margin from a closed-loop configuration.

-Ken
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: UGB, Phase margin, Gain margin
Reply #2 - Nov 5th, 2003, 11:54pm
 
For those of you who have SourceLink access, a method that I often use is described under http://sourcelink.cadence.com/docs/db/kdb/1994/Nov/1805276.html (section 7.2). Ken, would it be ok to post this article to the forum?

In SpectreRF 5.0, there is a new stability analysis feature (stb) that permits to simulate the loop gain directly in a closed-loop configuration.
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ram
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Re: UGB, Phase margin, Gain margin
Reply #3 - Nov 7th, 2003, 12:43am
 
Thanks to all of you.

I dont have access to source link, it would be great if I get the article.

Regards
ram
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: UGB, Phase margin, Gain margin
Reply #4 - Nov 10th, 2003, 5:51am
 
I am afraid that I cannot post the article from SourceLink without someone from Cadence saying that it is ok to do so.

However, you can find an alternative method at http://www.spectrum-soft.com/news/spring97/loopgain.shtm. It takes a little longer to set up than the method described in SourceLink but it has the advantage that it works for any kind of circuit (the method from SourceLink can only be applied to certain circuit configurations).
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Ken Kundert
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Re: UGB, Phase margin, Gain margin
Reply #5 - Nov 19th, 2003, 5:39pm
 
This is the SourceLink article Frank was referring to. My book has even more ways of measuring loop gain ("The Designers Guide to Spice and Spectre").

-Ken


From SpectreNews Issue #7, 4 July 1993.
Loop Gain (Revisited)

In Issue #3 of SpectreNews, we presented a method for measuring the loop gain of an amplifier that did not require opening the loop.  That method had two drawbacks, it required a separate AC analysis and was inaccurate if the input impedance of the amplifier was not much larger than the output impedance of the feedback network.  We now present a more direct approach that avoids the weaknesses of the previous approach.  It also allows you to measure all four important quantities of a feedback amplifier with a single AC analysis.  For the series-shunt feedback amplifier shown below:


Series-Shunt Configuration:
   A = Vo / Vp        -- closed-loop gain
   a = Vo / (Vp-Vn)   -- open-loop gain
   T = Vn / (Vp-Vn)   -- loop gain
   f = Vn / Vo        -- feedback factor

By substituting the appropriate current for the voltages given in the above equations, they can apply to the other three feedback configurations:

Series-Series Configuration:
   A = Io / Vp        -- closed-loop gain
   a = Io / (Vp-Vn)   -- open-loop gain
   T = Vn / (Vp-Vn)   -- loop gain
   f = Vn / Io        -- feedback factor

Shunt-Series Configuration:
   A = Io / Ip        -- closed-loop gain
   a = Io / (Ip-In)   -- open-loop gain
   T = In / (Ip-In)   -- loop gain
   f = In / Io        -- feedback factor

Shunt-Shunt Configuration:
   A = Vo / Ip        -- closed-loop gain
   a = Vo / (Ip-In)   -- open-loop gain
   T = In / (Ip-In)   -- loop gain
   f = In / Vo        -- feedback factor

The desirable features of this approach include:
1.  No changes to the circuit are required.
2.  All four measurements can be made from the results of a single AC analysis.
3.  The loading on the various sections of the circuit does not change, as will occur if the loop is broken in any fashion.
4.  The DC operating point remains unchanged.

This approach to measuring loop gain is superior to several other possible approaches.  For example, the most obvious approach to measuring the loop gain is to open the loop.  However, opening the loop changes the loading on the feedback circuit and often changes the operating point.  The effect of either of these changes could invalidate the results.

A more refined approach is to open the loop in such a way that the DC operating point is not changed.  Some simulators provide a resistor that takes different values in the DC and AC analyses.      To measure loop gain, the resistor would be placed in series with the feedback loop and takes the value of 0 Ohms in the DC analysis (so the loop is closed when computing the DC operating point) and takes the value of infinity Ohms in the AC analysis (so the loop is open when measuring the loop gain). While this avoids a possible shift in the operating point, the loading still changes when the loop is opened during the AC analysis. This results in the computed value of loop gain being in error, particularly at high frequencies where the capacitive loading of the input on the output could be significant.

Thanks go to Max Hauser for bringing this approach to our attention.
--- Editor.
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ram
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Re: UGB, Phase margin, Gain margin
Reply #6 - Nov 24th, 2003, 8:52pm
 
Thanks to all of you who have contributed for this discussion..

Ken,

If I am right on understanding of this article, if I am using the opamp in some close loop configuration , for example non-inverting configuration ( as it is used in the figure) it is enough to see signals at vp, vn and vo and compute various parameters. No need to break the loop and mimic the loading conditions.

Please correct me if something is missing in my understanding.

Is there any Indian edition of "The Designers Guide to Spice and Spectre" book available?

Regards
ram
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Ken Kundert
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Re: UGB, Phase margin, Gain margin
Reply #7 - Nov 26th, 2003, 6:32pm
 
Ram,
   The approach described in this article is approximate. Its accuracy suffers from when loading effects are significant, as they often are near the unity gain frequency. Common mode gain in the opamp can also cause substantial error. These issues are discussed in my book.

I do not know of an Indian version of my book.

-Ken
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Andrew Beckett
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Re: UGB, Phase margin, Gain margin
Reply #8 - Dec 1st, 2003, 5:54am
 
Ram,

You should also consider the "stb" (stability) analysis which is in IC50
release of spectre (and Analog Design Environment) or later. This
is another way of checking these metrics without opening the loop,
and has some benefits over Middlebrook's method in some situations,
I believe.

Regards,

Andrew.
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okguy
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Re: UGB, Phase margin, Gain margin
Reply #9 - Feb 9th, 2004, 5:28am
 
Hspice can calculate them for you :   Roll Eyes
.measure ac db_gain max vdb(out) from=1k to=5k
.measure ac unity_gain when v(out) = 1
.measure ac phase_shift find vp(out) when v(out) = 1
.measure ac phase_margin param='180 + phase_shift'
.measure ac second_pole when vp(out)=-135
.measure ac first_pole when vp(out)=-45
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