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Problems in using phase model of PLL (Read 116 times)
axuan
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Problems in using phase model of PLL
Jul 24th, 2004, 2:21am
 
When I using phase domain model verilog-a model in "PLLnoise+jitter.pdf" to analysis pll's phase noise, I encountered some questions,
1) How can i use "ground" correctly, when i use it in loopFilter's model , compiling occurs error of "ground is a future reserved keyword, ..."
2) When i delete ground and connect node 'gnd' to ground symbol at top level, compiling passed with warning, I can perform a PSS  to analysis pll phase model(like Listing1 and with blocks' models ). but analysis stopped at 97.5% and show that V(out) is too small to reliably detect the period of the oscillator....Why does it occur and how to perform a correct PSS analysis?(I set "beat freq" equa to V(in)*Kvco)
3) Why SpectreRF reguard 'out' as a voltage signal?How to analysis phase signal in PSS analysis?
4) Theta(out) in vco model will get larger and larger with time increase, is this a problem?
Can anyone help me? ???
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Jitter Man
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Re: Problems in using phase model of PLL
Reply #1 - Jul 24th, 2004, 6:02pm
 
1) you have to pass ground in from the top level.
2) you should not be using pss analysis. a phase domain model suppresses the carrier. you simply use a ac or noise analysis.
3) you have formulated a model where phase is represented as a voltage.
4) phase should not go to infinity. you should be working with phase deviation rather than absolute phase.

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axuan
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Re: Problems in using phase model of PLL
Reply #2 - Jul 27th, 2004, 12:17am
 
Thank you,Jitter man. I think I haven't read this article carefully.
I still have some problems:
1)I used AC analysis, but voltage and phase of "out" are both zero.
2)When I select Noise Analysis, it tell me must specify an "input noise",so I add an "port" symbol in the schematic, then I can run Noise Analysis and get output noise result. Do I do this in a right way?and how can I convert the result to phase noise.
ps: I do that all in ADE gui.
3) Can you tell me the typical "n: and "fc" value of each pll block? Now I filled their value arbitarily.


Thanks for any help!
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Jitter Man
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Re: Problems in using phase model of PLL
Reply #3 - Jul 27th, 2004, 12:06pm
 
1) You must specify the "mag" parameter on the input source to be non-zero.
2) You only need to specify the input source if you want to compute either the input referred noise or noise figure. You can specify any type of source (voltage, current, or port) as the input source. If you specify a voltage or current source as the input, it will compute the input referred noise. If you specify a port, it will compute the noise figure.
3)  I'm afraid not. Sorry.


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axuan
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Re: Problems in using phase model of PLL
Reply #4 - Jul 27th, 2004, 8:04pm
 
Thanks a lot!
But, you know that pll phase model only have 2 node(including "gnd"), I can't add an input on the shematic when I run an AC analysis.
Also, port or voltage/current objects can not connect to a node of pll in the schematic, so I just let its two nodes connect to nothing. I think I only care that I can run "noise analysis" to get output noise and the connection of an input source is not necessary.
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Jitter Man
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Re: Problems in using phase model of PLL
Reply #5 - Jul 28th, 2004, 1:09am
 
Check out Figure 1 in "Predicting the Phase Noise of PLL-Based Frequency Synthesizers". It shows where to put the input voltage source to measure the phase transfer characteristics from the reference input to the output. You can move the source around to measure other transfer characteristics. Remember, that a voltage source acts as a phase source because in this model voltage represents phase.

You'd be better off simply not specifying an input rather than putting an artifical input source in the circuit that is not connected to anything.

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axuan
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Re: Problems in using phase model of PLL
Reply #6 - Jul 28th, 2004, 11:26pm
 
Oh, I see.
I should not use that PLL model of Listing1 in simulation. Now I connect independent symbol of each block  together in a schematic. When I perform an AC or a noise analysis, I delete the Oscillator symbol instead of an dc voltage source only with AC mag equal to 1.
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