The Designer's Guide Community
Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register. Please follow the Forum guidelines.
Aug 18th, 2024, 5:23am
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
How to simulate the harmanic distortion of S/H? (Read 6296 times)
tuza2000
New Member
*
Offline



Posts: 5

How to simulate the harmanic distortion of S/H?
May 05th, 2006, 1:35am
 
i want to simulate the harmanic distortion of the sampling&holding circuit of a pipeline ADC ,but i dont know how to do ?
can anybody help me?
thanks!!!
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
ywguo
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 943
Shanghai, PRC
Re: How to simulate the harmanic distortion of S/H
Reply #1 - May 5th, 2006, 3:17am
 
tuza2000,

Here is an example.

.tran 1ns 12.8us
.fft v(op,on) from=1ns to=12.8us NP=512 window=Kaiser-Bessel

where the sampling rate is 40MS/s, the period is 25ns. At least I figure out which harmonic is larger using that method.


Best regards,
Yawei
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Ken Kundert
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2386
Silicon Valley
Re: How to simulate the harmanic distortion of S/H
Reply #2 - May 5th, 2006, 7:30am
 
If you are using Spectre you should add a 25ns strobe interval to the transient analysis statement to eliminate any errors from interpolation.

-Ken
Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW   IP Logged
sheldon
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 751

Re: How to simulate the harmanic distortion of S/H
Reply #3 - May 6th, 2006, 2:13am
 
Tuza2000,

First , there  has been a detailed discussion of this issue in the thread,

http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/?board=ms_design;action=display;num=1118555... 245;start=7#7

For a pipeline ADC, the methodology for simulating an ADC is identical to the
methodology a S/H. In the case of the S/H, the noise is not limited by the
quantization noise of the ADC, or the thermal/shot/... noise of the S/H. So the
FFT noise floor is only limited by the numerical noise of the simulation and the
FFT. The largest noise source in the FFT is usually the interpolation noise. Interpolation
noise occurs because FFTs have very strict requirements about how the signal is
sampled, 2^N equally spaced samples. Since SPICE-type simulators do not usually
stop at the correct time points without help, the FFT noise floor is often limited by the
error in estimating the actual value from the available time points. The easiest
solution is to set the maximum step size to be small to minimize the error. However,
this increases the simulation unacceptably so Spectre provides the strobe option.
It forces a time step at the instant required for the FFT. One other option to consider
is using a Spectre's zvcvs source as an ideal sample and hold. It has the same effect
as strobe and allows the use of Spectre's built-in Fourier integral calculation.

  Also, as mentioned in the thread above, the rectangular window is sufficient. Using
windowing functions introduces error. You might want to leave some additional time
in the simulation at the start.Usually there is some delay required to reach sinusiodal
steady-state. For example, common-mode feedback loops usually require time to
settle. So you might want to add an additional 100-200ns to the simulation.
                                                                           Best Regards,

                                                                              Sheldon
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
schehrazi
Community Member
***
Offline



Posts: 45
University of CA, LA
Re: How to simulate the harmanic distortion of S/H
Reply #4 - May 23rd, 2006, 1:58pm
 
Hi,

I have a question on this. This is related to the strobe interval which Ken mentioned in his reply. Suppose in the transient simulation, MaxStep is 1ns and the simulation length is 100us. MaxStep only defines the maximum time step which is used in the transient simulation right? so, in a simulation, the actual time step which used can be sometimes smaller. which means, the simulator does not calculate the desired node voltage at all integer multiples of MaxStep (1ns).
Now, my question is if strobe periode (which for example 25ns) forces the transient simulation to do the calculations at all integer multiples of 25ns? What I myself understand, is that strobe periode only strobes the desired node voltage at integer multiples of 25ns and because the actual time steps can be smaller than 1ns, an interpolated point might be picked instead of a real calculated point.

Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
schehrazi
Community Member
***
Offline



Posts: 45
University of CA, LA
Re: How to simulate the harmanic distortion of S/H
Reply #5 - May 23rd, 2006, 2:53pm
 
Hi,

Again, I found the answer myself after looking at Ken's book "The designer's guide to Spice and Spectre" carefully. On page, 240, in the paragraph right before it enumerates the useful characteristics of strobing, it says that in contrast to SPICE, Spectre actually places a time point at the sample time and interpolation will not be a used."

Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
mikki33
Community Member
***
Offline

Analog/Mixed
Signal/High Speed

Posts: 57
Israel
Re: How to simulate the harmanic distortion of S/H
Reply #6 - May 24th, 2006, 12:57am
 
In HSPICE you also can do it. Use option called INTERP to write output with the step defined in the .TRAN statement. Another option called DELMAX will define max simulation step. So the above example will looks like

.options interp=1 delmax=1ns
.tran 25ns 12.8us

Michael
Back to top
 
 

If you don't have time to do it good
you will find time to do it again
View Profile   IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Copyright 2002-2024 Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. Designer’s Guide® is a registered trademark of Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. All rights reserved. Send comments or questions to editor@designers-guide.org. Consider submitting a paper or model.