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high oversampling ratio (Read 5753 times)
Sumit Adhikari
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #15 - Aug 13th, 2009, 11:58am
 
For second order single bit it is absolutely possible.
For first order you need to do a feasibility study. There are few things
you need to keep in mind, some basic thumbrules.

SNR > 70 dB   : Consider First Order Non Idealities.
SNR > 100 dB : Consider Upto Second Order nonlities
SNR < 140 dB : Consider all kind of non idealities.

Therefore I would suggest you to do a feasibility study over First Order Sigma Delta Modulator. This can be done using a model and introducing non-idealities.

Matlab/Simulink could be one such tool. But the controllability while using macros will be bad. Speed is also not good. You may please considering modeling in systemc-ams. You will get an estimate of how much SNR is posible.
If not satisfied with systemc-ams + systemc model result or still the result lies in boundary, further detailed modeling in verilog-ams can
be done. This is how you should proceed. Entering circuit designing stage will be far later. You should spend more time in modeling and
analyzing model results. Rigorous study on models with high reliability
can be done with ease while rigorous study on circuits is impossible.
If you end up with modeling in verilog-ams you will be having a reference design for each block which can be verified against each designed blocks in circuit level. This will also reduce your number of re-spins.
Let me know if I am missing something.
Regards,
Sumit
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ycm
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #16 - Aug 13th, 2009, 3:17pm
 
Thanks, this is really helpful.
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Sumit Adhikari
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #17 - Aug 13th, 2009, 11:34pm
 
Please let me know if you need help in system designing/modeling/simulation and also regarding documents.
Happy to help,
Sumit
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Berti
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #18 - Aug 14th, 2009, 3:30am
 
Sumit,  7 years experience is a lot!
The fs>200MHz delta-sigma modulator I designed was for WLAN (11bit, 10MHz BW). I don't have monte-carlo simulations, only measurments.
But, I agree that you can't compare that directly with ycm's specs.

YCM: Choosing the delta-sigma modulator topology, OSR, sampling fequency etc. isn't a random process, but rather a careful analysis of pros and cons. You can design the best amplifiers, if you decision at system level were bad you will never get a good circuit.

Regards
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ycm
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #19 - Aug 15th, 2009, 9:14pm
 
Hi Sumit,

I am going to use Matlab to run some simulations first. By the way, if I use a second order single bit modulator followed for a sinc3 filter, (fin bandwidth=1kHz, OSR=1024, 16bit resolution) what is the total conversion time for the ADC? my understanding here is sinc3 filter needs N taps and N must be equal to OSR, so the delay of the filter is OSR which is equal to OSR*Tclk=Tinputsignal/2=1ms/2=0.5ms, is that correct? if that is correct, does not that mean the conversion time is always equal to half of the 1/fin without any relations with 16 bit resolution?

also, how to explain the output of sinc3 filter? say if the inputs to ADC are 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 of full scale and ADC is 16 bit,  sinc3 filter outputs are y(1), y(2), y(3) ...., how to explain y(1), y(2), y(3) ....? my understanding y(1)='00FF'H, y(2)='000F'H, y(3)='0003'H, is that correct?

Thanks a  lot
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Sumit Adhikari
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #20 - Aug 15th, 2009, 11:43pm
 
Hi YCM,
  Please find my replies inline.

Hi Sumit,

I am going to use Matlab to run some simulations first.

>> Judicious. Use Matlab to find out the frequency response of entire
    signal chain. Also analyze pole-zero plot for your SDM and settling
    time for each block and entire signal chain. Optimize you SDM
   topology by choosing proper coefficients.

By the way, if I use a second order single bit modulator followed for a sinc3 filter, (fin bandwidth=1kHz, OSR=1024, 16bit resolution) what is the total conversion time for the ADC? my understanding here is sinc3 filter needs N taps and N must be equal to OSR, so the delay of the filter is OSR which is equal to OSR*Tclk=Tinputsignal/2=1ms/2=0.5ms, is that correct? if that is correct, does not that mean the conversion time is always equal to half of the 1/fin without any relations with 16 bit resolution?

>> Well there are two things here. First is the group delay.
     I your case it will be 3/2 cycle of downsampled clock(third order
     CIC). It means 1ms*3/2 = 1.5 ms (at the output of CIC). The
    answer changes if you have chopping/dechopping. In that case
    CIC schemes will be different. Important to know about chopping.
    I wont like non-integral delays anyway. I would have been
    compensated it for 2 delays (not 3/2 delays).

    Second is settling time. Means if suddenly input changes (say
    from 0 to full scale, step input). Do a step response analysis in
    Matlab on CIC or entire filter chain.

    Please do a Monte Carlo Simulation on Matlab over pole zero and
    frequency response to see the stability of your system.
    Your integrator response will be somehow as follows :

    H(z) = beta*z^-1/(1 - alpha*z^-1)
    where beta = Cs/Cf
    and alpha = 1.0 - beta/Aol (Aol = open loop gain of OPAMP)
    beta is the gain of integrator and alpha is leakage.

    vary Cs and Cf with a normal random number and plot response
    and pole-zero plot of entire SDM. This will tell you about pole
    spread and system response (by this term I mean both STF and
    NTF), which in terns helps you determine the sizes of Cs and Cf

     1ms *

also, how to explain the output of sinc3 filter? say if the inputs to ADC are 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 of full scale and ADC is 16 bit,  sinc3 filter outputs are y(1), y(2), y(3) ...., how to explain y(1), y(2), y(3) ....? my understanding y(1)='00FF'H, y(2)='000F'H, y(3)='0003'H, is that correct?

>>> You know the answer partially. The answer is hidden in DNL and
      INL requirements of an ADC. at zero input output has to be
     0 and at full scale it would be 65535 (if you use unsigned
     arithmetic, Note this is very important to select the arithmetic of
     DSP. It helps reducing your current consumption. Example
     signed arithmetic is good for upto 8 bits of registered width,
     but for you it would be unsigned 2's complement as your bitwidth
     will be 16 or more bits. Please refer Anantha Chandrakashan
     for better understanding,
       http://www-mtl.mit.edu/~anantha/publications.html).
       Accordingly common mode(1/2) will be
     32768. There is an issue here. You need to check your CIC gain
     here. For example if you use CIC of DSR 64, the output gain
    (D.C) will be around 108.37 dB. So you can achieve with 16 bits
     output as 108.37 - 2*6 = 96.37 dB, which wont be 16 bits. This
     is intrinsic characteristic of CIC. One example to fix this is
     calibration coefficients.

     If you are using a straight FIR implementation then for sinc3
     filter u need N coefficients. That same filter can be reduced to
     a CIC response, there u need 6 taps only Smiley.
    for 1024 down sample 1024 tap FIR is simply too large to
    implement. So better to use its CIC reduced form Smiley


Thanks a  lot
>>> You are always welcome Smiley
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« Last Edit: Aug 16th, 2009, 4:05am by Sumit Adhikari »  
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ycm
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #21 - Aug 16th, 2009, 8:23am
 
wow, so detailed answers. Smiley

The conversion rate is only related with 1/finput signal bandwidth and has nothing to do with OSR. But how about the group delay? if there are 2 delays in sinc3 filter, the conversion for one input signal will be 2ms which does not meet the 1ms conversion time requirement. How to solve this problem to meet 1ms conversion time spec? Angry

Maybe the way to increase the input signal bandwidth to 2kHz so the delay will be 3/(2fin)=3/(2*2k)=0.75ms, the conversion time is 0.75ms, is that correct way to do?
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« Last Edit: Aug 16th, 2009, 7:08pm by ycm »  
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Sumit Adhikari
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #22 - Aug 16th, 2009, 10:10pm
 
Possible. Following is a scheme.
| SDM(2MHz) | ----> | CIC1, 3rd order, DSR = 512 | ---> | CIC2, 1st order, DSR = 4 | --->

CIC1's output has 0.5 ms delay.
CIC2 : First order. Use delay free integrator and unregistered downsampler output, then
only group delay comes from one differentiator (1/2 delay) , so the delay introduced
by this block is 0.5 ms.
So total delay 0.5ms + 0.5 ms = 1 ms.

There are so many other combinations possible.
I already gave answers for group delay (how 3/2 delays are coming). here also we matched group delays.
BTW, What is ur frequency response spec ?
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ycm
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #23 - Aug 17th, 2009, 7:48am
 
if the DR of the first CIC and second CIC are  512 and 4, then OSR is going to be 512*4=2048, since fs is 2MHz, so the input signal bandwidth is around 0.5kHz instead of 1kHz? thanks
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Sumit Adhikari
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #24 - Aug 17th, 2009, 8:40am
 
Output Sampling rate = 2MHz/(4*512) = 1kHz and the BW = 500 Hz. I thought that u need output sampling rate of 1 kHz! I am sorry for
wrong understanding.

Following could be one of ur scheme.
| SDM(1MHz) | ----> | CIC1, 3rd order, DSR = 512 | -->
Output Delay = 0.5ms + 0.5 ms = 1ms, rate = 1024/512 = 2kHz.
Sumit
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ycm
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #25 - Aug 17th, 2009, 9:10am
 
If the DR of the second CIC is changed to 2, all the other conditions are the same, the delay of the the first CIC is still 2 cycle latency=0.5ms and the the delay of the second CIC is 0.25ms so the total is 0.75ms, is that correct? thanks
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Sumit Adhikari
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #26 - Aug 17th, 2009, 9:38am
 
No need to add CIC2
| SDM(1MHz) | ----> | CIC1, 3rd order, DSR = 512 | -->
Output Delay = 0.5ms + 0.5 ms = 1ms, rate = 1024/512 = 2kHz.
Sumit
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ycm
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #27 - Aug 17th, 2009, 9:53am
 
sinc3 filter always introduce 2 cycle delay, so the conversion time is equal to 2*1/fdatarate=2*1/2kHz=1ms, right? Smiley

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Sumit Adhikari
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #28 - Aug 17th, 2009, 9:56am
 
Thats what you wanted. U asked to meet the spec of conversion delay of 1ms

"The conversion rate is only related with 1/finput signal bandwidth and has nothing to do with OSR. But how about the group delay? if there are 2 delays in sinc3 filter, the conversion for one input signal will be 2ms which does not meet the 1ms conversion time requirement. How to solve this problem to meet 1ms conversion time spec? Angry"

BR,
Sumit
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ycm
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Re: high oversampling ratio
Reply #29 - Aug 17th, 2009, 9:58am
 
Sumit Adhikari wrote on Aug 17th, 2009, 9:38am:
No need to add CIC2
| SDM(1MHz) | ----> | CIC1, 3rd order, DSR = 512 | -->
Output Delay = 0.5ms + 0.5 ms = 1ms, rate = 1024/512 = 2kHz.
Sumit



now for input signal bandwidth 1kHz, OSR=512, for your past design experience, the silicon came back can achieve 16 bit accuracy? how small the power supply voltage for single power supply could be to achieve this accuracy for 1kHz bandwidth with 512 OSR?  thanks a lot.   Smiley
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« Last Edit: Aug 17th, 2009, 4:27pm by ycm »  
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