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play on S parameters of transistor !!! (Read 1302 times)
RF_Designer
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play on S parameters of transistor !!!
May 09th, 2010, 5:42am
 
Hello,

Is there any solution to play with S2p file of transistor, i.e, in case when the simulated and measured results are not agree especially in S11. For that, i tried to many way to see what is th problem but still no thing good. I have checked on the net, i saw that if we play on s2P parameters (little variation) we can see approximately the variation...

Is any idea for that ??

Means that :
1. both shunt capacitors in the transistor input and output ?
2. series inductor in the transistor input and both shunt capacitors in the transistor input and output ?
3. series resistor in the input of transistor ?
4. ....?

in ADS sof

Thank you in advance,

Nass
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: play on S parameters of transistor !!!
Reply #1 - May 9th, 2010, 6:02am
 
I can't undersrtand what on earth you want to do.

RF_Designer wrote on May 9th, 2010, 5:42am:
in case when the simulated and measured results are not agree especially in S11.
What do you mean by simulated and measured results ?

What conditions do you apply for simulation ?
Do you include package model and PCB model in simulation ?
Do you correctly do de-embedding in measurement ?
Do you correctly do calibration of reference plane in measurement ?

RF_Designer wrote on May 9th, 2010, 5:42am:
in ADS sof
What is it ?

Describe correctly using industrial standard terminologies.

If your simulation and measurement conditions are perfect, evaluate equivalent linear circuit model by fitting from S-parameters.
Then perturb parameters of equivalent linear circuit model such as gm, cin, cout, etc.

http://edocs.soco.agilent.com/display/ads2009/Optimizing+A+Linear+FET+Model+to+M...

But I think your problem is simply you can't reflect actual measurement conditions in simulation.

http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1236164999
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1245915183/2#2

The followings are general notes for you.

- Always describe correct tool's name and vendor's name which you use as tool or simulator.
- Don't do multiple posts which are same content.
- Don't request source code or behavioral model without any efforts.
- There are many simulators which have analyses called as PSS, PAC and Pnoise.
- Describe in detail with using correct terminologies.
- Warnigns are different from Errors.
- ADS is not name of simulator.
- There is no tool which name is Cadence.
- Don't use Direct Plot of Cadence ADE blindly without knowing definition.
- All gains in Direct Plot of Cadence ADE are "right", "true" and "practical" voltage gain.
- Don't mix up Simulation with Post Processing. They are completely different phase.
- MATLAB are different from Simulink.
- Learn measurements using actual instruments. Not "EDA Tool Play
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« Last Edit: May 9th, 2010, 10:03am by pancho_hideboo »  
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rfcooltools.com
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Re: play on S parameters of transistor !!!
Reply #2 - May 22nd, 2010, 11:27pm
 
Nass,

You think that your s-parameters are wrong?
Here are some ideas
1. S-parameters contain no bias condition other a snapshot of the transistor working at a bias condition and they are only accurate in that state as a small signal (AC) model.  
2.  If you think they where measured incorrectly the try the following.  
a. if you suspect that extra shunt capacitance is at the input or output then place a shunt cap in your test bench with a negative value of what you think the shunt cap is.
b. if the port extention is suspect then use a t-line of negative length in your schematic etc
Basically you can try to debug the s-parameter measurement errors by using negative components to give you some "insight" as to what might be an issue.

To get the real result you need to verify that the measurements are taken correctly.  That your circuit matches the exact test structure. That your simulation include the parasitics of the board. And in general most errors are just DC biasing issues.


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RF_Designer
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Re: play on S parameters of transistor !!!
Reply #3 - Jun 10th, 2010, 9:43am
 
Hello,

Thank you for replying me...
i wanna say that i'm using ADS for simulations of my LNA.
The transistor that i'm using is from NEC technologies, unfortunately i do not have its model.
When i measured the LNA, i found that the measured parameters do not agree well with the simulated results especially in S11. In order to detect the problem, i added shunt capacitors in the input and output of transistor in the whole circuit. As results, the simulated parameters had changed and converged to the measured one.
Not that, the simulations are done as following:
1. from layout i create the component
2. in schematic window, i simulated the created component but with using S2P of the transistor  instead  of its model since it's not available...

I hope that i clarified my problem.....
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: play on S parameters of transistor !!!
Reply #4 - Jun 12th, 2010, 6:45am
 
RF_Designer wrote on Jun 10th, 2010, 9:43am:
The transistor that i'm using is from NEC technologies, unfortunately i do not have its model.
RF_Designer wrote on Jun 10th, 2010, 9:43am:
2. in schematic window, i simulated the created component
but with using S2P of the transistor instead of its model since it's not available...

What do you mean by "model" ?

Don't you have S-parameter model file ?

Do you mean nonlinear model ?
If so, I showed you a location where you can get nonlinear model of "NE3514S02" in another your post.
Again surely see the followings.
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273409182
http://www2.renesas.com/microwave/ads/NE3514S02_v127.ads

But I don't think your problem require nonlinear model of transistor.

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 10th, 2010, 9:43am:
Not that, the simulations are done as following:
1. from layout i create the component
What do you want to mean ?
Do you mean that you use standard distributed component of ADS as layout blocks ?
Or do you mean that you invoke EM-Cosimulation of Momentum and SP-analysis in Agilent ADS ?

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 10th, 2010, 9:43am:
I hope that i clarified my problem.....
Your problem is very easy problem.
I think your problem is simply you can't reflect actual measurement conditions in simulation.
Show me reference plane location for actual measurement and simulation.
If you use SMA connector in actual measurement, how to treat it in simulation ?
Or do you use "Port Extension" in actual measurement ?

Again surely read http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273408947/1#1

Or your problem might be due to discrepancy of bias conditions as "rfcooltools.com" says.
The followings are bias conditions for provided S-parameter model.
Coompare your bias conditions with bias conditions of S-parameter you use.

! NEC Compound Semiconductor Devices Ltd.
! NE3514S02
! N-channel HJ-FET

! 1. Dec. 2005
! VDS = 0 V   VGS = 0 V

! 24. May 2006
! VDS = 2 V  ID = 5 mA

! 29. July 2005
! VDS = 2 V  ID = 10 mA

! 24. May 2006
! VDS = 2 V  ID = 20 mA

! 24. May 2006
! VDS = 3 V  ID = 15 mA

! 1. Dec. 2005
! VDS = 0 V   VGS = -2.5 V

! 24. May 2006
! VDS = 2 V  ID = 7 mA

! 24. May 2006
! VDS = 2 V  ID = 15 mA

! 24. May 2006
! VDS = 3 V  ID = 10 mA

There is no meaningful reply also in your same post in another following forum.
http://www.edaboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=392582
Do you understand the reason ?
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