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references needed (Read 4668 times)
ampbuilder
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references needed
Jun 22nd, 2010, 2:47pm
 
Hi, I am designing a discrete transistor based fully differential opamp for low impedance mics in audio. The input stage is like that of the AD620 in which the gain of the input stage is almost proportional to closed loop gain. I search the web and books throughly but could not find any useful info re  common mode control and stablity issues and design example.

Do any one know of any papers/books on diff amps?
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carlgrace
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Re: references needed
Reply #1 - Jun 22nd, 2010, 5:34pm
 
Gray, Hurst, Lewis and Meyer has an excellent and rigorous discussion of fully-differential amplifiers, with a good, non-hand-wavy presentation of common-mode feedback.
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Reply #2 - Jun 25th, 2010, 9:33am
 
Thanks. I have already looked that up. Indeed gery and meyer is very good. But I need a fully working schematic with components values shown. Do you know of any?
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carlgrace
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Re: references needed
Reply #3 - Jun 25th, 2010, 2:04pm
 
A *discrete* op amp?  Really?

I don't think you're going to find much to help you there.  Generally discrete designs have a big enough power supply that they can do fine single ended, especially audio frequency circuits.

If it must be differential, an easy way is to make a pseudo-differential amplifier using two op-amps, one inverting and one non-inverting.  There is a phase difference associated with this, of course, but if you design fast circuits it shouldn't be a problem at audio frequencies.  

This is an old technique, and predates fully-differential op amps (this was done in the late 70s for example).  A good reference for this is Gregorian and Temes "Analog MOS Integrated Circuits for Signal-Processing".  This is a great book to read in general.

Good luck!

Carl
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Reply #4 - Jun 26th, 2010, 12:53pm
 
Thanks. Yeah, I could make an single ended standard 3 opamp in-amp or even use one of the available chip especially designed for audio. But on the aspect of noise, they are inferior --- the lowest noise opamp available on the market has about 0.9nV/rtHz whereas with discrete, you can go as low as 0.7nV/rHz and even lower. Also the quality of discrete transistors and passives tend to be better than those in the chips.

The GBW of discrete design is much lower then chips' but then in audio, you don't need it; it's even undesirable because of the higher noise gain.

An existing design with components values shown will be helpful!  

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Reply #5 - Jun 26th, 2010, 12:57pm
 
yeah it has to be diff because the mic output, having a long cable has a high level of hum, buzz and RF which is CM signal at the amp end. The mic capsule on the other hand, it's floating.
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Re: references needed
Reply #6 - Jun 27th, 2010, 9:39am
 
Right at the microphone you need to have an amplifier.

Wire in between not allowed.

All that fancy low noise that you are striving for?
If you don't have an amp right inside the mic, its lost due
to pickup in the wires, and I don't care how differential and
how much CMRR you got.

There are many chips out there for this purpose already.
The noise performance when properly implemented are well
beyond the capability of the ear/brain to process.

Consequently, not sure what the intent is here. Are you trying this as hobby electronics and learning about the subject or?
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Jerry Twomey
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Contract IC-PCB-System Design - Analog, Mixed Signal, RF & Medical
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Re: references needed
Reply #7 - Jul 1st, 2010, 11:08am
 
Out-board amp for mics are routinely used for mic signal in the audio circle. Wireless Mic are of lower quality. Out board amp can and do have better SNR.
Discrete transistors at the front end have up to 50% less noise then manufactured opamp/inamp.
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