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Still confused by input impedance matching of LNA (Read 1396 times)
yong_rfic
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Still confused by input impedance matching of LNA
Aug 07th, 2012, 12:24pm
 
Hi all,
I read this post carefully but still not comfortable with impedance matching to 50Ohm.
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1195659245
My thought is:
Assume there is not offchip BPF proceeding the LNA, and assume antenna is connected
to LNA through a 50Ohm transmission line. If the LNA is not matched, the t-line will see
a purely capacitive load, then all the signal power will be reflected back, which is a case
that should always be avoided, according to many people and textbook. But the signal amplitude would be twice as the impedance matched case. Since LNA is a voltage amplifier, then what is wrong with this? we can get more signal voltage at the output by not matching the input impedance!

Is there something wrong or missing in my analysis?
Thanks,
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aaron_do
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Re: Still confused by input impedance matching of LNA
Reply #1 - Aug 7th, 2012, 6:47pm
 
Hi,


you might find this webpage useful.

http://vk1od.net/transmissionline/VSWR/VSWRMyths.htm

It seems that if you have a lossy line, the actual line "power loss" increases with the VSWR. However, according to the webpage, it may not be that much in practice. Note that "power loss" degrades the maximum achievable SNR. For a transmitter, it also reduces the maximum achievable efficiency.

Another thing to mention is that for very wide-band systems, a VSWR can actually distort the signal since different frequencies will see a different impedance.

Lastly, the conclusion of your analysis is kind of wrong. If the input impedance of the FET is treated as purely capacitive, then it is never possible to power match to the FET. Conventional matching schemes (inductive degeneration for example) deliberately add resistance to the FET input impedance in order to provide an impedance to match to. If we treat this resistance as infinite, then an ideal match to this infinite resistance will produce an infinite voltage at the FET input, and therefore, the matched design gets a larger signal voltage than the unmatched design.


regards,
Aaron
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yong_rfic
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Re: Still confused by input impedance matching of LNA
Reply #2 - Aug 7th, 2012, 7:32pm
 
Hi Aaron,
Thanks for your reply. I just got the same confusion as you had before, that is why
I cited your post in the beginning.
Please check the comment you made in your own post, which I quoted here: ''the point i'm trying to wrestle with is whether or not we care about signal reflection. We should be able to get very high voltage gain and low noise if we don't care about matching and we have some nice high Q inductors''
Is your above statement right? Currently I agree with it but it seems there is something wrong.
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aaron_do
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Re: Still confused by input impedance matching of LNA
Reply #3 - Aug 7th, 2012, 11:49pm
 
Hi,


I see that I posted that about 5 years ago, so I'm not really sure exactly what I was thinking back then. Anyway, what I can say is that the statement is more or less correct. As I pointed out in my first reply, power loss increases with VSWR, so that must be taken into account. Another thing is that having a matched impedance reduces uncertainty. For example, if I match to 50-ohm, then when I add a 50-ohm transmission line, it doesn't matter how long the line is - at the other end it will always be 50-ohm. However, if my load impedance is not 50-ohm, then the impedance seen from the other end of the line will depend on the line length.

Maybe you could say what you think is wrong with my original statement.


regards,
Aaron
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yong_rfic
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Re: Still confused by input impedance matching of LNA
Reply #4 - Aug 8th, 2012, 6:34am
 
So what you mean is t-line always has loss, which comes from the series and shunt resistance. And this loss increases with higher VSWR. When the load is not matched, then the voltage appeared at the load (in this case, input of LNA) would be smaller compared with the matched case.
Is my paraphrase right?
Thanks again!
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yong_rfic
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Re: Still confused by input impedance matching of LNA
Reply #5 - Aug 8th, 2012, 6:52am
 
I realized the power loss you are talking about is reflection (mismatched loss), not attenuation (matched loss).
I read Razavi's RF Microelectronics, he made several points about why we need impedance matching for LNA, which are kind of clear.
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aaron_do
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Re: Still confused by input impedance matching of LNA
Reply #6 - Aug 10th, 2012, 6:00pm
 
Hi,


I wasn't talking about mismatched loss. I was talking about actual power loss. I was just referring to the article I linked. It makes some sense to me that a higher reflection coefficient would lead to higher power loss since a larger part of the signal would be travelling twice down the line instead of just once.


regards,
Aaron
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RFICDUDE
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Re: Still confused by input impedance matching of LNA
Reply #7 - Aug 12th, 2012, 8:03pm
 
Conjugate impedance matching is only relevant for maximum power transfer from a real source to a real load.

An antenna is a relevant case because we want to transfer the maximum power from the antenna to the load. But the definition of the load becomes a bit ill defined when the load is the gate of a MOSFET transistor. As Aaron pointed out, there is always some resistance in the capacitive gate to match to. But, matching to the resistance in the gate would result in a fairly poor NF (3dB NF if the real part of the input impedance was strictly due to the resistive loss in the gate connection).

Achieving low NF with conjugate matching requires that a large portion of the real input impedance be contributed by negative feedback from the output to the input. It doesn't matter much if it is shunt or series feedback so long as the feedback that sets the real part of the input impedance is noiseless (i.e. inductive or capacitive).

Low NF can be achieved with poor S11 without feedback, but noiseless or noise cancelling feedback is required to achieve both a good match and low NF with a common source amplifier.

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yong_rfic
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Re: Still confused by input impedance matching of LNA
Reply #8 - Aug 14th, 2012, 1:37pm
 
Thanks you guys for all your reply.
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