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How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter? (Read 442 times)
Yutao Liu
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How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Sep 30th, 2011, 8:15pm
 
Hello everyone,
My design is a direct-conversion transceiver for PCS/DCS standard. There is a confusing phenomenon when the MPW is on the single sideband test where a 135KHz single tone is the baseband input. Following is the detail.

Case I: The sideband suppression of the transmitter is about 21dB when the receiver is disable;

Case II: The sideband suppression is approximately 6dB better than that of the previous case, when the bias of receiver and the LO of receiver is enable.

Case III: The sideband suppression is over 30dB when the matching network of the receiver is not soldered on the PCB.

According to the result of case III, the sideband suppression of transmitter is best when no signal runs through the receive path. And  the transmitter seems susceptible to the receiver.  However, the results of case I and case II conflict to my expect that the sideband suppression should have been better when receiver is off.

Could everyone give some explanation to this thing?  
Furthermore, what simulation  should I do to enhance the immunity of the transmitter?

Thanks in advance,
Yutao
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« Last Edit: Oct 01st, 2011, 12:20am by Yutao Liu »  
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ACWWong
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #1 - Oct 4th, 2011, 1:31am
 
If I have understood you correctly (i.e. you have a IQ modulator direct conversion TX) Sounds as though you have an IQ mismatch problem, most likely due to the LO. You can correct for it somewhat by adjusting the input baseband signal IQ signals relative phase and amplitude.

PCS/DCS is a half duplex system, so the RX should be switched off whilst transmitting.... the fact that switching the RX on causes a change in your SSB "image" rejection maybe down to the fact that the RX causes a change in the LO IQ phase/amplitude matching.

Cheers
aw

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Yutao Liu
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #2 - Oct 4th, 2011, 2:05am
 
Thanks for Wong's reply.
I do agree with that the IQ mismatch caused the sideband suppression degradation. But why you suggest that it is most likely due to the LO.

In addition, I found that the bias voltage of the LNA was tied to ground by an "on" MOSFET when RX is disable. Is it possible that the transmitted RF signal returns to the substrate through the antenna and that "on" MOSFET? Finally, the substrate becomes noisy and the SB rejection degrade.

Regards,
Yutao
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #3 - Oct 10th, 2011, 11:48pm
 
Yutao Liu,
Let me restate what you are saying:
Receiver off sideband 21dB
Receiver and LO on 27dB
Un-soldering receiver matching network 30dB.
Questions what state is the receiver and the receiver LO in case III ?
By switching between on and off is there any difference?
if no
Then I would take a look at the isolation between the TX port and the TX mixer, Its possible that when the receiver is on it presents an impedance to the TX port where the TX mixer is better behaved.
There are many ways that imbalances can occur but in my experience the substrate as the cause is not it.  (most of the time when a root cause cannot be determined the substrate is the default culprit, but I have found that metal magnetically/electrically is always the offender, and usually through the supply or ground).  But if the artifact can be observed from external changes then the board chip interface is the likely the smoking gun.  Devise an experiment such as a load pull to see how sideband suppression varies as a function of load impedance.

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Yutao Liu
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #4 - Oct 16th, 2011, 3:42am
 
Thanks for the replies.
I took an experiment that the rf switch on the PCB is replaced by the one with better isolation. The sideband suppression turned to be over 30dB,  as good as the case without receiver matching network.

Could I get the conclusion that the degradation of SB is caused by the crosstalk between Tx port and Rx port?  The Tx port and the Rx port is placed far away between each other, how could the crosstalk come out? Through the power supply line as mentioned in the post by rfcooltool?

If so, what can I do to fix my design?

Thanks,
Yutao
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #5 - Oct 16th, 2011, 9:11pm
 
Yutao Liu,

The piece of information you gave where having the rx circuitry on gave better side band suppression.  You should get to bottom of why this is the case?  

As in many isolation situations there can be multiple paths.  Does this new switch achieve better isolation how?  What is the impedance looking into the old switch when the rx is loaded with the matching circuit and with out.  What does the new switch look like?

How does your sideband suppression look when the tx port is unbalanced (if differential) and/or mismatched ?


Power supply coupling can be reduced by onchip bypassing at the circuits you don't wan to talk to each other.  Think about it this way, think of supply coupling reduction from the signal current's perspective.  A current is always looking to find the loop with the lowest impedance.  keep the loops local and of low impedance then they will be less likely to leave through a bond wire.  Does the isolation change when you for example put your finger on the supply?  If it does put a ferrite (choose one that doesn't inhibit normal operation) bead in series with the first on board bypass cap, did the isolation improve ?  


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Yutao Liu
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #6 - Nov 10th, 2011, 6:09am
 
Thanks for the reply from "rfcooltools.com"!
Both the new and old switches are off-chip SWITCHPLEXER.

The sideband suppression becomes better when a finger is put on the matching network. And the receiver is on at the same time.

Does the supply network of the transmitter is polluted by the radio signal from the transmitter? And the "on" receiver offer a loop for the noisy signal leaving the supply network?

The transmitter is supplied by an off-chip LDO. I hardly think about that how the supply network affects the transmitter's sideband suppression.

By the way, which pin does the ferrite bead and the bypass cap connect?

Thanks very much!
Yutao
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #7 - Nov 10th, 2011, 10:59am
 
This system would normally be run time division multiplexing with the receiver-transmitter never on at the same time.

Suggest you analyze the system that way. Many GSM chip sets will not function with both sides alive at the same time.
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #8 - Nov 11th, 2011, 9:15am
 
Yutao,

The fact that your finger makes a change is a good information.  Your finger can act like a low Q capacitor, a lossy antenna, or if perspiration exists a resistor in parallel with both.  So now you should be asking your self why?
Antenna?
Take a piece of metal,  I usually use an exacto knife, and touch the same point where your finger made a change.  Did it do the same thing? Make it worse or better?  
Move the exacto knife in a circle keeping the point in contact with the point does it go from worse to better?  

If it is not an antenna then you may be dampening the matching network with you finger, in that case I would try to bring a network analyzer into the picture and try devise a precise scheme to characterize all ports in question in isolation of each other.  This is tedious but modeling this and simulating will probably yield part of the answer.  

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Yutao Liu
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #9 - Nov 18th, 2011, 7:30am
 
hello "http://rfcooltools.com",
Thanks for your suggestion. I am trying the method you supposed in the last post.

Before that, I did an experiment to analyze your problem.  A 1880.32MHz sine wave is input through the RX port to model the transmitted signal when the RX is shut down. And then a spur appears with 640KHz offset the VCO output frequency, which is 3760MHz. The frequency of VCO is 2-divided in the LO path. So I suspect that this spur degrade the sideband suppression of TX.

Furthermore, I do another test to observe the spur. When the VCO output frequency goes far away from 3760MHz, while the input sine wave stays 1880.32MHz, the power of the spur decreased.

Dose the transmitted signal pollute the spectrum of the VCO through the RX port? And this is the culprit of the degradation of the TX sideband suppression? Is there any other ways I can prove my assumption further?

Thanks a lot!
Yutao Liu
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #10 - Nov 18th, 2011, 8:54am
 
Ah, your receiver system when it is shut down internally, how are you turning it off?

Are you just shutting down the bias lines and letting it float?

Or are there internal switches which ground out the circuitry?

You will minimize your coupling paths if you use switches to ground out things internally when you turn them off. Otherwise, you are providing a number of coupling paths which are not well controlled.

Your external matching network on the receiver is picking up transmitter signals, and then that is coupled through the passive (powered down) receiver circuits and metal connections.

Read:

http://effectiveelectrons.com/substrate.htm

and the material presented here:

http://effectiveelectrons.com/HelpIC.htm

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Jerry Twomey
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #11 - Nov 18th, 2011, 11:17am
 
Yutao,

The experiment you tried is interesting, but still leads to a few possibilities causing the problem.   Does a simulation yield the similar results?  

When you injected this signal into the rx port, was it still connected to the TX port through the switch?
If yes it is so then it might be the mechanism of coupling you state or at least a similar mechanism.  but since the vco is running at 2x the LO then its probably getting on the divider possibly through a common supply.  This mechanism once found should be an easy fix.

if no,  Does the experiment you tried yield similar results if you remove the rx path matching circuit completely.  If so then I would be more inclined to believe its the transmitters reflected signal causing the imbalance, hopefully this is not the case!

For the yes case
Using a high impedance probe (or a simple stripped coax with a DC block to act as an antenna) and a spectrum analyzer probe the supply for the VCO by injecting the a tone into the disabled rx path.  Also look to see if you get strong relative sidebands around the VCO and 2xVCO this would indicate that the its on the VCO signal.  Record relative levels of all spurs, and try to reproduce them in the simulation by introducing them one at a time until you see in simulation the same as in measured.  

Good luck
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Yutao Liu
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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #12 - Nov 19th, 2011, 8:40am
 
Thanks for your reply, Jerry.
In my chip, a current mirror offers the bias voltage for the LNA. The bias of the LNA is grounded by an "on" NFET, and an "off" PFET cuts off the current flowing into the current mirror,when the receiver is shut down. I thought this way could provide enough isolation between RX port and the internal circuitry.

The receiver is powered by an independent on-chip LDO, while the transmitter is powered by an off-chip LDO, and all MOSFETs in the LDO is placed in a NWELL for better isolation to the substrate. So I am curious which path the transmitted signal goes through and finally impacts the transmitter?

loose-electron wrote on Nov 18th, 2011, 8:54am:
Ah, your receiver system when it is shut down internally, how are you turning it off?

Are you just shutting down the bias lines and letting it float?

Or are there internal switches which ground out the circuitry?

You will minimize your coupling paths if you use switches to ground out things internally when you turn them off. Otherwise, you are providing a number of coupling paths which are not well controlled.

Your external matching network on the receiver is picking up transmitter signals, and then that is coupled through the passive (powered down) receiver circuits and metal connections.

Read:

http://effectiveelectrons.com/substrate.htm

and the material presented here:

http://effectiveelectrons.com/HelpIC.htm


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Re: How the receiver affects the sideband suppression of transmitter?
Reply #13 - Nov 19th, 2011, 5:52pm
 
OK, you are hard biasing the current source off, but the rest of the circuitry is allowed to float.

So, what paths in the system attached to the front end matching network are now powered down but still connected?

When you need good isolation of coupling paths, often the powering down of current sources is not sufficient. Sometimes you need to connect a switch to many of the high impedance paths that are unbiased and inactive, but can serve as zero gain (or lossy) transmission paths.

When in doubt ground it out!
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Jerry Twomey
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