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TurboV Junior Member Offline Posts: 15	RF Design Embedded Antenna Jun 11^th, 2012, 1:18am Hello all. I was hoping that someone could tell me whether applications exist today for a chip act as a micro controller but also contain transceiver components ? If such applications do exist then would the antenna be embedded or an external one ? Thanks in advance Vm
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RFICDUDE

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Re: RF Design Embedded Antenna
Reply #1 - Jun 11^th, 2012, 4:29pm

I think every transceiver is dependent upon a micro-controller whether it is external or internal to the transceiver chip.

In many cases the primary micro-controller is external to the transceiver because the costs associated with developing a transceiver in the latest greatest digital CMOS technology node.

Antennas are not generally integrated for frequencies below several 10s of GHz.

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loose-electron

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Re: RF Design Embedded Antenna
Reply #2 - Jun 12^th, 2012, 1:10pm

Transceivers are generally not integrated onto the same substrate as a digital processor-controller due to noise.

Many attempts made here, and a few have worked, but most fail due to noise coupling.

ANtennas inside the chip?
Or antennas integrated onto the the PCB?

many on PCB for ISM bands and up in frequency

google search ceramic on board antennas

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TurboV

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Re: RF Design Embedded Antenna
Reply #3 - Jun 15^th, 2012, 2:41am

loose-electron wrote on Jun 12^th, 2012, 1:10pm:

Transceivers are generally not integrated onto the same substrate as a digital processor-controller due to noise.

Many attempts made here, and a few have worked, but most fail due to noise coupling.

ANtennas inside the chip?
Or antennas integrated onto the the PCB?

many on PCB for ISM bands and up in frequency

google search ceramic on board antennas

Many thanks to both replies. I was thinking whether a single micro controller chip could encompass an all in one solution ? All in one meaning the micro controller, transceiver and the antenna all exist in once single chip. Based on both of your replies it seems unlikely that this is possible.

Thank you again

Vm

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aaron_do

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Re: RF Design Embedded Antenna
Reply #4 - Jun 15^th, 2012, 6:39am

Hi,

if it is for research, then I think I remember a paper one or two years ago at most which described a 60 GHz RFID chip whose goal was to integrate everything on the chip. So it included a 60-GHz energy harvester with on-chip antenna. I think the idea was basically to transfer power to the chip at 60 GHz, and possibly do some very simple processing, and then send a signal back.

There has also been research into antennas integrated into a package if you want to try and put it all in a single package. Also, multi-chip modules are quite common now where multiple die from different processes are packaged together.

just for your interest...

regards,
Aaron

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loose-electron

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Re: RF Design Embedded Antenna
Reply #5 - Jun 15^th, 2012, 9:47am

TurboV wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012, 2:41am:

Many thanks to both replies. I was thinking whether a single micro controller chip could encompass an all in one solution ? All in one meaning the micro controller, transceiver and the antenna all exist in once single chip. Based on both of your replies it seems unlikely that this is possible.
Vm

What is possible and what is desirable can be different.

Generally the digital-analog are split due to noise.

Some people will put digital-analog in multi chip modules,
same package, different substrate, and frequently different foundry processes.

As well, over the product life cycle, the digital part may get migrated forward
several times. (.18 to .13 to 90nm to....) due to the ease of Verilog process migration.

That's a common strategy in cell phones.

As for the antenna? On the chip? Possible, but generally not desirable.
Why? The physical area needed for the antenna will be more cost effective
as a metal layer on a PCB than a metal layer on a silicon substrate.

FR4 PCB = Cheap,
Silicon = More Expensive

There is a huge business associated with doing embedded antennas as part of the PCB layout.

You got to have the thing on a PCB anyhow, so build the antenna there.

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Jerry Twomey
www.effectiveelectrons.com
Read My Electronic Design Column Here
Contract IC-PCB-System Design - Analog, Mixed Signal, RF & Medical

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biff44

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Re: RF Design Embedded Antenna
Reply #6 - Jul 8^th, 2012, 1:59pm

There are such chips, such as from Microchip or Renasys, that have a complete microcontroller as well as a transceiver. �They work pretty good for distances up to perhaps 300 feet. �I believe most are 1/2 duplex (i.e. can either recieve or transmit, but not both at the same time).

The antennas, being big, are almost never on the chip. �The only chips with on-chip antennas are at 60 Ghz, or therabouts. �Not going to happen at 2.4 or 5.8 GHz.

There might be some full duplex chips out there, but I can not recall any right now. �The trouble is the transmitter puts out wideband noise, so even if the receive channel is far away in frequency it still gets jammed. �Full systems fix this with big clunky waveguide or SAW filters that reduce this self-jamming, but again that will not fit on a single chip.

Rich
Maguffin Microwave

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