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Output Impedance of circuit (Read 10149 times)
Larry_80
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Output Impedance of circuit
Jun 30th, 2012, 8:45am
 
Hello Folks,
Please i am in dire need of opinions/helps or suggestions. Please find attached is a schematic of the circuit in question. transistor MB and resistor RB serve as feedback to the main stage. My questions are these:
1.) Does the feedback effectively boost the gm of M1 by the gain of the feedback stage (gmMB*RB)?
2.) Also what is Rout?
3.) This looks like the circuit is inherently unstable?

Please i could use any feedback as this as taken such a long time for me to figure out and i need opinions from the circuit gurus.

Thanks a lot!!
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AnalogDE
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #1 - Jun 30th, 2012, 11:44am
 
Do some reading on 'regulated cascode' circuits.
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RobG
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #2 - Jun 30th, 2012, 9:22pm
 
The gain of the amplifier will lower Rout, just like an opamp lowers the Rout of the 2nd stage (which also could be a source follower) I don't see any reason why it would be inherently unstable but you can add cap to Rb to compensate the loop.

You should define your inputs and outputs... what are you trying to do?
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aaron_do
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #3 - Jun 30th, 2012, 10:54pm
 
Hi,


Apart from what the others said, I suggest you read up about loop gain and it's effect on output impedance and gain.

http://users.ece.gatech.edu/pallen/Academic/ECE_6412/Spring_2004/L290-ReturnRati...


regards,
Aaron
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Larry_80
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #4 - Jul 1st, 2012, 8:59pm
 
Thanks guys....I actually was trying to do exactly that....Lower Rout. But unfortunately, my circuit is osciillating....i have a cap load which i need to drive at the Rout node (sorry i didn't label it). I added the feedback for "BW extension" which made my circuit run at the frequency i wanted, but made my circuit unstable..pretty much have an oscillator Sad. Any suggestions how to solve this?
Thanks guys for the response....appreciated... also the voltage i'm interested is at the Node across Resistor R.
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aaron_do
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #5 - Jul 1st, 2012, 10:59pm
 
Hi,


any time you have a negative feedback loop like the one you have, it is a good idea to check the phase margin. Just break the loop with a voltage source, and run a "stb" analysis (assuming you're using Cadence). From there you can modify your circuit until it is stable.


regards,
Aaron
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RobG
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #6 - Jul 2nd, 2012, 6:15am
 
put some compensation in the loop... a cap across drain/source of Mb.
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Larry_80
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #7 - Jul 2nd, 2012, 11:08am
 
Thanks, guys, so i figured i will make this more interesting and post the full picture of my circuit. Please find attached. The circuit is supposed to be do current sensing at the source of M1,M2 (current inputs not shown). So the first picture shows original circuit. The second shows my modification to enable me run it at higher frequencies by lowering Ry. Increasing the gain of the feedback circuit improves my voltage differential (v1-v2) during current sensing, and it lets me run it at the higher frequency required. Unfortunately, it oscillates. I was able to stabilize it by reducing the gain of the feedback (which is counter productive) because now swing is very small i.e its BW is reduced.
RobG suggested i put a cap btw Rb/Mb, but the cap needed to stabilize it affects my BW. How do i compensate this circuit by maybe adjusting the phase response and not gain??? That i believe is the challenge... Thanks guys.... hopefully i make a little sense.
So i am simulating the wire using a wire primitive. I tried disabling the cap for the wire and circuit stops oscillating. So the wire cap is the culprit causing my circuit to oscillate somehow...
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« Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2012, 1:11pm by Larry_80 »  
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aaron_do
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #8 - Jul 2nd, 2012, 6:10pm
 
Hi Larry_80,


your circuit is quite confusing. Where are the inputs? I'm guessing the outputs are V1 and V2, right? But then why did you label the top resistors as ZL (load impedance)? So if I'm wrong and V1, V2 are the inputs, then why are you using PMOS? Also, from your schematic, it looks like RB and R are in parallel which means they can be replaced by a single resistor right?

Anyway, assuming V1 and V2 are the outputs, you can do a half-circuit analysis to see that your circuit does indeed reduce the DC input imepdance. However, I'm not sure if this is true for high frequencies since it depends on the loop gain 1+gmB(R||RB) which has an pole due to the output node. It also adds input capacitance to the circuit. If you want to be sure, you could do an ideal schematic using VCCS components with resistors and a couple of capacitors to double-check.

Another thing is that the main transistor has a positive feedback loop with the output, so if the loop gain is too high, the circuit may be unstable.


regards,
Aaron


EDIT:

OK I had another look at your circuit, and it seems I'm wrong and the output is ZL. So now it looks a lot like a source follower except the input impedance without ZL is negative. So you're trying to develop a very large voltage at the input and then buffer it to the output? Actually my earlier analysis was still right, except I had it backwards, so it looks like your DC output impedance drops, but at high frequencies it is limited by the loop gain.

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Larry_80
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #9 - Jul 2nd, 2012, 10:00pm
 
Hi Aaron_do,
You were right in the first place....My output voltage is v1 and v2 and my input current will be differential current sources driving both nodes at the source of M1, M2. Yes the circuit is equivalent to a "super" source follower. thankx for your response, so should i take your first statements before your EDITED version as correct?
sorry for the confusion the ZL is wire impedance.....and not load impedance as in output.
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Larry_80
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #10 - Jul 5th, 2012, 11:07am
 
Hi guys,
I am trying to do STB analysis in cadence. I am pretty confused on how to break this loop since i have 2 feedback paths. One for cross-coupled and the other for gm boosting. I am more inclined to breaking it at the V1 or V2 point. Any advice will be appreciated.
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aaron_do
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #11 - Jul 5th, 2012, 7:34pm
 
I think you should check both...btw, why did you say its a super source follower? It looks more like a common-gate to me. Also, is there any reason you're using PMOS devices?
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Larry_80
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #12 - Jul 5th, 2012, 10:28pm
 
Hi Aaron_do, yeah you are right it looks more like a common gate. I cannot replace with NMOS input pair because the long wire (with big cap) i am trying to drive is pre-charged to a level closer to VDD. (does this make sense?) (thats why i have a current source to model the precharger). Also could you confirm i have both positive feedback loops? i traced by hand and i keep getting positive feedback for the gm-boosting. How do i make this negative?? thanks for all your contribution and help!!!
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aaron_do
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #13 - Jul 6th, 2012, 12:37am
 
It appears to me that you have one positive feedback loop (with the cross-coupled PMOS), and one negative feedback loop with your new addition. Actually, having one positive and one negative sounds a little pointless since intuitively they should cancel each other. I'm not 100% sure about that though, so I suggest you use ideal components (vccs to represent transistors) to confirm your idea.


regards,
Aaron
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Larry_80
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Re: Output Impedance of circuit
Reply #14 - Jul 6th, 2012, 11:58am
 
i Aaron_do, any advantage of using an NMOS input pair? I will verify my idea using VCCS as you suggested. Thanks.
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