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pole zero doublet (Read 3418 times)
raja.cedt
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pole zero doublet
Feb 25th, 2009, 8:28pm
 
hi,
   can any body please explain how to get intuitive feeling about doublet,means by looking at the circuit is there any way to predict pole-zero doublet.Apart from the settling effect ,is there any effect on system performance?

Thank you,
Rajasekhar.
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Visjnoe
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #1 - Feb 26th, 2009, 10:51am
 
Yes, you can intuitively assess whether or not a circuit has a pole-zero doublet.
Look for 2 parallel signal paths from input to output. When one signal path has a pole that the
other signal path does not have, a pole-zero doublet will arise.

Regards

Peter

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HdrChopper
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #2 - Feb 26th, 2009, 5:53pm
 
I agree with Peter. In addition consider the particular case of 2 parallel signal paths intended to have the same pole but with some degree of mismatch - say - in one branch´s capacitor.
Mismatch of (intended identical) poles in a differential circuit is one example of this.

Regards
Tosei
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Keep it simple
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raja.cedt
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #3 - Feb 26th, 2009, 9:45pm
 
Thanks for your valuable reply.I think in differential pair pole zero will come because of parallel path,but those are 2X distance,so does it impact any settling?Is there any other circuits which will give double(give me some examples).And more over is there any other impacts  on time response other than settling?
Thank,
Rajasekhar.
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Berti
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #4 - Feb 27th, 2009, 1:15am
 
There is a famous paper from R. Meyer and P. Gray about this issue:
" Relationship Between Frequency Response and Settling Time of Operational Amplifiers".

Cheers
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thomasross20
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #5 - Feb 27th, 2009, 8:36am
 
Yes, that is an excellent paper, Berti.
Check out Klas Bult's famous paper, something about a fast settling 90dB amplifier...
Basically another circuit which involves doublets if you're not careful is that of a gain-boosted amplifier. Just make sure the UGBW of the gain-boost amps is greater than the -3dB freq of the main amplifier.
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skywalker_1
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #6 - Mar 3rd, 2009, 4:44am
 
you can even refer one book by Sansen "Analog design essentials" He took example of Current mirror load in opamp for doublet generation
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nobody
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #7 - Mar 3rd, 2009, 6:31pm
 
I have a question and was wondering if ac simulation can find the effect of pole-zero doublet. Thanks.
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raja.cedt
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #8 - Mar 3rd, 2009, 10:23pm
 
hi,
   i think it  is always better to check doublet effect in time response,because in ac simulation u may miss doublet if they are very close and if step is large of course with transient response also same will happen if we are not  care....
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nobody
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #9 - Mar 3rd, 2009, 10:33pm
 
I go with Rajasekhar and what he said is pretty much like what I heard about the effect of pole-zero doublet in AC simulation. Thanks again.
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raja.cedt
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #10 - Mar 4th, 2009, 12:08am
 
hi,
   i am sorry to ask this question but i can't.I calculated transfer function for gain boosted amplifier,and from that i to know that there is doublet  at the ugb of the error amplifier,is there any way to predict this with out doing lot of math ,even i don't want the location of the doublet,but at least how to predict that there is a doublet.Thanks for your valuable time.
Regards,
Rajasekhar.
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vivkr
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #11 - Mar 5th, 2009, 2:42am
 
Hi,

Indeed, there is a very simple way to predict that there is a doublet without doing any math at all. I assume that you have not read the classic paper by Bult and Geelen ("A fast settling CMOS Opamp for SC Applications with 90 dB DC Gain" which appeared in the JSSC, Dec. '90 issue).

Look at the gain profile of a gain-boosted amplifier for the case where the -3dB bandwidth of the main amp is f0, and for the boosting amp f1, where f1 << f0 (as a simple example). Say the main amp has gain G0, the boosting amp G1, both in dB.

Now the gain at DC is G0 + G1, and stays so until f1, where it starts to drop by 20 dB/dec, until it reaches f0 upon which it becomes constant at G0 dB until you reach f0.

So, the gain first drops and then it becomes flat, hinting that a pole is followed by a zero. That's all there is to it really.

Regards,

Vivek
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raja.cedt
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #12 - Mar 13th, 2009, 10:48pm
 
hi vivkr,
             Thanks for your advice,i read the paper and finally i got one basic doubt.
1.In any feedback loop all blocks inside loop should be as fast as possible when compared with the overall loop,for example i am designing pll,inside all charge pump amps are i am designing 10* faster than loop,other wise it will effect loop performance.But in this paper the conclusion is added amplifier's UGB should be less than the overall amplifier.Can u please explain where i am getting wrong?
Thanks,
Rajasekhar.
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vivkr
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #13 - Mar 16th, 2009, 12:33am
 
Hi Rajshekhar,

As far as I remember, the paper also states that the auxiliary amp's bandwidth should be higher than the overall loop bandwidth (which is also the logical conclusion you have drawn), and so I see no contradiction. Maybe you have misinterpreted something.

Regards,

Vivek
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Re: pole zero doublet
Reply #14 - Mar 19th, 2009, 11:52pm
 
i have design a gainboost amp, the main amp is telescopic and the aux amp is foled. the pole-zeros are all real number when the three amps simulated seperately. but when i simulted the gainboost one, the first two doublets which were arised by two aux ampa are complex numbers. I doubt how the complex numbers doublts arise,why they weren't the real numbers doublts.
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