The Designer's Guide Community
Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register. Please follow the Forum guidelines.
May 19th, 2024, 1:56am
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
integrator abnormal behavior (Read 5841 times)
NTR
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 11

integrator abnormal behavior
Oct 25th, 2011, 3:18pm
 
Hi,
I am implementing integrator with UGBW:2Ghz, Dc gain:46dB, Fc:10MHz. by the help of LPF  H=1.257e010/s + 6.283e007.
then Im running " lsim(H,input,time)" to see integrator response for  arbitrary input with time.
I am getting response as shown in fig.
The blue one is integrated signal and down blcak signal is my input.

Here my doubt is what causes such behavior. the signal saturates after particular period of integration instead of continuing integration of the signal.

Thank you
/NTR
Back to top
 

waste.jpg
View Profile   IP Logged
raja.cedt
Senior Fellow
******
Offline



Posts: 1516
Germany
Re: integrator abnormal behavior
Reply #1 - Oct 26th, 2011, 7:35am
 
hello,
could you please explain where did you model, like matlab or spice..? One reason could be there may be some max value on the o/p, which you are observing like saturation, generally integrators can't be run in open-loop..

Thanks,
raj.
Back to top
 
 
View Profile WWW raja.sekhar86   IP Logged
NTR
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 11

Re: integrator abnormal behavior
Reply #2 - Oct 27th, 2011, 3:23am
 
Hi Raj,

I Model this using MATLAB.
I think it is independent of input amplitude & it depends on settling time of filter( 1/F_cuttoff). After this time(1/F_cuttoff) LPF is saturating.

Here I am using integrator in closed loop only.

How can I integrate all my input pulse train even after settling time (saturation ) of filter?

Thank you
/NTR
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
boe
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 615

Re: integrator abnormal behavior
Reply #3 - Oct 27th, 2011, 9:40am
 
NTR,
I'm guessing you don't have a pole at DC; I didn't try it, but I suspect you use H=1.257e010/(s + 6.283e007). This is a low pass, not an integrator.
- B O E
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
NTR
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 11

Re: integrator abnormal behavior
Reply #4 - Oct 27th, 2011, 9:50am
 
Hi BOE,
ya this is low pass filter. In general  lpf  acts as integrator at higher frequencies. But I wonder how people are using then LPF as integrator?
from my understanding I think LPF acts as integrator untill it gets saturated(up to settling time of low pass filter).

Thank you
/NTR
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
boe
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 615

Re: integrator abnormal behavior
Reply #5 - Oct 27th, 2011, 10:23am
 
NTR,
sorry that my first answer was apparently not elaborate enough:
Of course, any practical (real) implementation of an integrator will be lossy, i.e. it will not have infinite DC gain. However, a gain of 200 or so is far from a good implementation for an integrator (i.e. it has significant non-idealities).
If the DC gain is large enough, saturation will be the limiting factor; however, your model (just the transfer function) does not include saturation, so you get the finite DC gain as limiting factor.
- B O E
[PS:] I called it a low-pass filter to highlight the non-idealities of the integrator.
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
NTR
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 11

Re: integrator abnormal behavior
Reply #6 - Oct 27th, 2011, 10:49am
 
BOE,

Is there any way to choose best lpf(i.e with low cutoof freq) to maintain UGBW 2GHz with reasonable DC gain. I know that UGBW=DC gain* Fc. Here I have more freedom in choosing Fc. but how can I choose best one?.
(I am using this integrator in non coherent energy detectors to estimate energy of received bit where input for this integrator is signal spans in range of 0-2GHz ).
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
boe
Community Fellow
*****
Offline



Posts: 615

Re: integrator abnormal behavior
Reply #7 - Oct 28th, 2011, 2:01am
 
NTR,
essentially this is a question of trade-off between effort and cost (area, power, ...) for building a better integrator vs. achieved/required performance of your system.
A (first-order) low-pass filter acts as an integrator over time intervals Δt ≪ τ, so you need to figure out over what time you have to integrate to achieve the performance you need.
- B O E
Back to top
 
 
View Profile   IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Copyright 2002-2024 Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. Designer’s Guide® is a registered trademark of Designer’s Guide Consulting, Inc. All rights reserved. Send comments or questions to editor@designers-guide.org. Consider submitting a paper or model.