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S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching (Read 7096 times)
baab
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S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Feb 20th, 2014, 11:32pm
 
Hi,
I am getting some problems relating to input impedance matching.
Please help me with questions in the picture. Thank you.

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aaron_do
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #1 - Feb 23rd, 2014, 9:04pm
 
Hi baab,


1) as I mentioned before, Z-parameters are determined with high-impedance ports while s-parameters are determined with matched ports. So based on the following equation, you can see why your amplifier S11 doesn't match when Z11 is 50ohm.



*equation can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scattering_parameters

Probably in your case, S22 is very bad, so even though S12 is good, the amount of reflection is enough to significantly degrade S11. You can work around this by doing only a 1-port simulation to match Z11, but keep the load connected.


2) As far as I remember, the inductive source degeneration amplifier cannot get you simultaneous matching of Zopt for NF and power. i.e. you can't get Im{Zopt} = 0. But it is possible to get it quite close. I think you need to adjust the value of Cgs with an extra capacitor.

3) The step-by-step LNA design procedure doesn't look quite right to me. A lot of it is right, but there are parts that are weird. For example, Step 7, check for gain, linearity, and matching. If it doesn't meet requirements go back to step 5. But step 5 doesn't have any room for adjustment since there is only one possible value of Ls. So what is the point in going back to step 5?


regards,
Aaron
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baab
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #2 - Feb 25th, 2014, 1:47am
 
Thank you, Aaron! I need to read it more before replying.
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baab
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #3 - Mar 8th, 2014, 11:09pm
 
Hello, Aaron.

I spent a lot of time reading about it. As from what you said, I realised that my mistake is that I used Z11 instead of Zin for input impedance matching.

I intended to do the input matching first and then output matching. However, because Zin depends on output, I now think I need to match output first.
Now it seems to be a vicious circle here. To match output, I need to know Zout but once again Zout also depends on input.
I don't know how can I match input/ouput now.
They interact each other.



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baab
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #4 - Mar 8th, 2014, 11:18pm
 
According to the analysis, Zin doesn't depend on output network at all.
I will simulate to check it now.
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baab
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #5 - Mar 9th, 2014, 5:24pm
 
Hi,
I have two problems needing your help.
1. Is there a way to measure input impedance without having to do output impedance matching first?
2. S11 is input reflection coefficient when output is matched. I am wondering how Candence do that?
The output port impedance is 50 ohms and Zout is not 50 ohms.
(considering the circuit posted above without input and output match networks)
I thought that we can only measure S11 and S22 as input and output have already matched. However, it doesn't seem to be the case.
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aaron_do
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #6 - Mar 9th, 2014, 6:00pm
 
Hi baab,


1. Do it iteratively. For example, start off with a reasonable estimate for the output matching network, and then do input matching, and then adjust your output matching network again, and finally readjust your input matching network. It will only take one or two iterations depending on how good your initial estimates are.

Quote:
2. S11 is input reflection coefficient when output is matched.


2. This statement is incorrect. S11 is the input reflection coefficient when there is no reflection at the load. i.e. ΓL = 0. Cadence doesn't need to know the details of your circuit. Note that Z11 is measured with ZL = ∞. i.e. ΓL = 1.


regards,
Aaron
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baab
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #7 - Mar 9th, 2014, 7:20pm
 
Hi, Aaron.

Quote:
2. This statement is incorrect. S11 is the input reflection coefficient when there is no reflection at the load. i.e. ΓL = 0.


no reflection at the load = output is matched???
Can I convert S parameters  to Z parameters and use Z11 as input impedance with the condition that output is matched?
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aaron_do
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #8 - Mar 9th, 2014, 7:52pm
 
Hi baab,


Quote:
no reflection at the load = output is matched???


Nope.

You seem to be confusing the output and the load. Don't worry, everybody has this confusion when they are starting out. The output impedance is looking from the 50-ohm load back into the circuit. It is basically a parallel combination of your transistor output impedance and the inductor's impedance. The load impedance is the next circuit block. For example, in your case it is probably a mixer. In textbooks, the load impedance is set to 50-ohm, but in practice there is no such requirement.

It might help if you imagine that there is a transmission line connected between the source and the DUT, and the DUT and the load. Like so,

RS ------tline (Z01)------DUT------tline (Z02)------RL

Here is the sequence of events from the output side:
t1: DUT generates output wave on tline (Z02)
t2: output wave reaches load. For  ZL = Z02, RL = 0 and therefore there is no reflection (end - this is the case for S11 analysis), otherwise go to t3.
t3: there is some reflection at the load (ΓL), and this travels backwards down the tline (Z02) to the DUT output.
t4: upon reaching the DUT output, there is some transmission back to the input (S12), and if Zout ≠ Z02, there is some re-reflection.
t5: so this basically goes on for ever with the signal getting smaller and smaller as it is absorbed by all the loss and load.

In reality, the reflection coefficient should be defined wrt the transmission line since reflection is only a meaningful concept when the distance traveled by the signal is long enough for it to experience a time delay. So in this case, the load reflection coefficient would be defined by the mismatch between Z02 and RL.

However, for spectre's SP analysis, Z02 is actually defined by RL. Therefore ΓL in the simulation is by definition equal to zero. So if you were to use a 1-kohm impedance for the load port, then for S11, the load would be 1 kohm, but for Z11, it would be infinite. A good reference if you want to understand this properly is "Power Waves and the Scattering Matrix" (I'm just quoting that from memory, so you'll have to look around"). Its quite an old paper.


regards,
Aaron

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baab
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #9 - Mar 10th, 2014, 10:57am
 
Thanks a lot, Aaron.

I misunderstood between output and load.
There is one thing that I don't get from your answer.

Quote:
t2: output wave reaches load. For  ZL = Z02, RL = 0 and therefore there is no reflection (end - this is the case for S11 analysis), otherwise go to t3.

Shouldn't it be  RL = Z02?
I suppose that the characteristic impedance Z02 is real.
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #10 - Mar 10th, 2014, 11:27am
 
I inserted a output matching network between the output of transistor and the output port.
Let's call input reflection coefficients, S11 and S'11 correspond with two cases, before and after adding output matching network, respectively.

From measurement, I see that S'11 is different from S11.
And as I know, we can convert S11 and S'11 to Zin.
S11 is NOT equal S'11 and this means that Zin also changes as output matching network is added.

I am wondering why that is the case. Why Zin is affected by output matching network?
There is little feedback here.
(I suppose this is correct because the cascode topology is used.)
From the circuit, Zin only depends on Ls, Lg, Cgs, and gm.
Could you explain?
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #11 - Mar 10th, 2014, 6:01pm
 
Hi baab,


Quote:
t2: output wave reaches load. For  ZL = Z02, RL = 0 and therefore there is no reflection (end - this is the case for S11 analysis), otherwise go to t3.


sorry for the typo. I meant For  ZL = Z02, ΓL = 0

Quote:
And as I know, we can convert S11 and S'11 to Zin.


How did you calculate Zin? Is it Z11? is the difference in Zin large or small? As I have explained previously, when using Z11, ΓL = ∞, so it could explain a small, and maybe even moderate difference in Z11. When you say there is little feedback, what is S12?

The calculation of Zin in your diagram makes a lot of simplifying assumptions. That's why it doesn't depend on the load......

Aaron
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baab
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #12 - Mar 10th, 2014, 8:28pm
 
Hi, Aaron.

Quote:
How did you calculate Zin?

I plotted S11 in smith chart and then move the pointer over the point and read that corresponding impedance value. I think that is Zin of the circuit with the condition there is no reflection from load.

I also used ZM analysis to find Zin and the two methods give the same result.

Quote:
Is it Z11?

No, Z11 is the input impedance as load is open, RL = ∞ while Zin here is measured as there is no reflection from load.

Quote:
is the difference in Zin large or small?

It is very large.

Quote:
When you say there is little feedback, what is S12?

I haven't measured it yet. I was only interested in S11 and S22.
I thought that the cascode topology will always give good isolation or very small S12 no matter how good the input/output matching is.

Quote:
The calculation of Zin in your diagram makes a lot of simplifying assumptions. That's why it doesn't depend on the load......

I don't understand why Zin changes largely as output impedance matching is added.
I supposed it should be very small change.





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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #13 - Mar 10th, 2014, 10:10pm
 
Hi baab,


if you set up the simulation and circuit properly, then it should be a small change.

You're just going to have to look over your circuit carefully to find the problem. For example, make sure the biasing point doesn't change. The more information you post, the more people can help.


regards,
Aaron
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baab
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Re: S11 and Z11 problem for input impedance matching
Reply #14 - Mar 11th, 2014, 1:33am
 
Thank you, Aaron.

Here is my circuit for simulation and simulation results.

1. Before adding output matching network
Zin = ZM1 = 109.1 - j 33.01
S11 = -7.604dB
S22 = -1.739dB
2. After adding output matching network
Zin = ZM1 = 50 - j5.711*10^-4
S11 = -99.19dB
S22 = -12.43dB

As you can see, S22 is not so good. Therefore, I did output matching again but after getting good S22, S11 is very bad. It is about -2dB.

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